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"Why We Did It" by Rachel Maddow

Did they also send Rumsfeld threats because he met with Saddam?

I agree with that tbh. Obviously the leaders should bear most of the blame but the "I was only following orders" argument didn't work before so I don't see why it works now.

Fact: When Saddam was working for the U.S. in the Iraq/Iran war, he had carte blanche to do dirt.

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Fact: When Saddam TOLD the U.S. he was annexing Kuwait, the administration gave NO NEGATIVE REPLY. So he rolled on them and why not? "The boss didn't say no, did he?"

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"Meeting with" and "Working for/with" are totally different.
 
Cheney and Bremer were beside themselves in the 80s and 90s when we didn't just bomb Iran out of existence/invade Iraq the first go around. The neo-cons are largely publicly dead and buried in retirement at this point, thank God. There's a very dangerous ideology just below the surface from Kissinger/McNamara through Reagan/Bush that finally bubbled to the surface during Bush 2's time in office. It's the sort of thing that still pollutes our foreign policy. How nonchalantly it is for Obama to mention we'll send our forces to Ukraine and fight Russia.

How so?
Cheney did not want to throw out Saddam, who did decide to steal Kuwait's oil and during this time period he decided to cut the military in half. I'm suprised that there has been no mention of Israel in this thread, I mean where did the WND's rumors come from?

[YT]6BEsZMvrq-I[/YT]

"Cheney said some of America`s military forces will be demobilized as defense budgets decline to about 4 percent of the gross national product, putting the Pentagon budget of the mid-1990s at their lowest level relative to GNP since the years before World War II.

This year`s defense budget of $295 billion represents about 6 percent of GNP."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...enses-pentagon-budget-pentagon-spending-plans

For all the war for oil that's been spouted over the last decade has anyone ever stopped and asked where that oil is?

Yep, not one drop of oil and prices have skyrocketed since 2000.
 
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It was about protecting the petrodollar. Bush did it for us, while simultaneously trying to get rid of a dictator.
 
It was about protecting the petrodollar. Bush did it for us, while simultaneously trying to get rid of a dictator.

Yet Iraq was trying to be our friend during the first Gulf War, and didn't try to shift out of dollars to the euro until 2000 -- 10 years after the first war, after the US had been enforcing crippling sanctions against Iraq for many years.

It makes no sense at all for us to start the war and get into violent antagonism with Iraq if petrodollars was the issue. Iraq was always playing ball with us on petrodollars, until we smashed their army and drove them out of Kuwait. Iraq was actually desperate to secure US approval/complacence towards their Kuwait invasion. But our Saudi masters and oil supply needs drove us to go after them; Saudis couldn't tolerate the Iraqis driving their war machine to the straits, the US couldn't tolerate conflict in the region that threatened the global oil supply.

Same thing with Iran, btw. We have been raging against Iran for decades. If we were really concerned about petrodollars, Iran would be overjoyed to work with us, and we would be playing with them. But our Saudi masters aren't going to allow that.

People confuse cause and effect; if petrodollars were so critical, why has the US been so fervently trying to fuck with countries that were already on the dollar oil pricing for many decades? Wouldn't we fight to preserve that, not to declare such countries public enemy no. 1? The whole petrodollar theory is also retarded on economic grounds ... do people really think that the amount of dollars that Russia holds in strategic reserve have fuckall to do with oil? Do they really think China's position on strategic reserves are driven by oil pricing concerns, as opposed to currency/trade issues? Read up about China's position on US bonds .... but even apart from that, it makes little sense as to why we would antagonize Iran and Iraq. We would do the exact opposite if petrodollars were our concern.
 
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Btw, the recent Russian conflict shows exactly the same pattern. It is 180 degrees ass-backwards to think that the Ukraine showdown is about petrodollars. The Russians have threatened to sell US debt *in response* to the US intervening and fucking with Russian interests, the US didn't intervene in the Ukraine order to prevent a sell-off of the debt. Exactly the opposite, there was no threat to the dollar-denominated debt UNTIL the US started pressuring the Russians regarding the Ukraine.

The petrodollar crowd routinely fails to distinguish these after-the-fact populist gestures, which emerge as a fuck-you gesture, from the preexisting conflict.
 
Weird how we supposedly invaded a country to enrich French and Russian oil companies. :/

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704328104574516901231406262
That's news to Exxon and Royal Dutch Shell?

WSJ:
"The Exxon-Shell team, combining two of the world's biggest publicly listed oil companies, had been seen as the favorite to win the contract, which calls for the consortium to boost production at the already-pumping field in southern Iraq in exchange for a per-barrel fee. Among the three competitors, it offered the highest production target for the field, the Oil "
 
You apparently didn't read the immediately following sentences in that article:

"The pact is the latest in a series of deals Iraq has recently signed or initialed with some of the world's biggest oil companies. Earlier this week, Iraqi officials completed a final agreement with BP BP +0.02% PLC and China National Petroleum Corp. and an initial agreement with a consortium led by Italy's Eni E +0.43% SpA. U.S. oil company Occidental Petroleum Corp. OXY +0.09% participated as a junior partner in the Eni-led team."

Clearly there were SOME American oil service contracts, but they were a drop in the bucket relative to the overall international competition, and the Iraqis drove such hard-assed terms that the amount of profits for such service contracts was relatively pathetic. Not that it could ever have been anything more than an infinitesimal fraction of the war costs, however, regardless of what the service contracts were. Compared with the titanic cost of the war, oil service contracts are like pissing in the sea, with the Americans being just a small boy pissing alongside a bunch of grown men. This is why the "oil contract" crowd is forced to hypothesize either that some sinister cabal sold American down the drain, spending hideous amounts of money to subsidize comparatively miniscule profits, or that somehow the US intended to do something sinister with the oil, its real goal, but then was prevented from doing so.
 
Yet Iraq was trying to be our friend during the first Gulf War, and didn't try to shift out of dollars to the euro until 2000 -- 10 years after the first war, after the US had been enforcing crippling sanctions against Iraq for many years.

It makes no sense at all for us to start the war and get into violent antagonism with Iraq if petrodollars was the issue. Iraq was always playing ball with us on petrodollars, until we smashed their army and drove them out of Kuwait. Iraq was actually desperate to secure US approval/complacence towards their Kuwait invasion. But our Saudi masters and oil supply needs drove us to go after them; Saudis couldn't tolerate the Iraqis driving their war machine to the straits, the US couldn't tolerate conflict in the region that threatened the global oil supply..
I don't understand what you're saying here. You say it wasn't an issue, until it became one. The US was never going to let Saddam annex Kuwait, and gain control of their country and oil. Financially, and strategically, it made sense to fight that war, and the US was fully paid back for it.
 
Oil's cool too. More useful than more weapons.
 
By way of addressing a few points minus the legwork of citing those parties making/challenging them individually:

1) US support for Iraq for most of the '80s had *ZIPPY* to do with Saddam being perceived as a really swell guy, or Saddam kissing up the US so's to secure the US as an ally/drinking buddy/etc.

While Shah Palavi was certainly capable of being an asshole and a thug, he had as much use for religious piety as a Presidential hopeful stumping for votes near a church in an election year. And he was hospitable to the US politically and diplomatically; I suspect that engineering his return to power was a factor.

When Khomeini bum-rushed the show and put up the "Under New Management" sign, there was widespread concern that the worst fears of many governments was standing by to be realized.

To whit: a rabid Islamic nutfudge on a mission to extend the reach of fundie Islamand becomes a divisive/destabilizing influence in the region.

Thus, it hardly laid anyone's fears to rest...[CON'T]
 
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I think control of oil is just one factor of a larger geopolitical game. They may have wanted more influence in the region, install puppets, change the power balance, etc. War strategists think long term and there are plenty of moving parts that go into planning.
 
[CONT'D] ...when in less than a year's time, Khomeini managed to provoke open war with Iraq by loudly/publicly exhorting his fellow Shi'ites to turn against Saddam's fellow Sunni Ba'athists.

When Iraq started slugging it out with Iran, Iraq became presumptive bulwark against radical Islam. He wasn't "working for us so much as working for himself which benefitted us indirectly.
 
My main problem is that people don't really think through what it means to be "for oil."

The war was undoubtedly fought "for oil" in the sense that oil was the primary interest of the United States. But what, exactly, does that mean?

There's a conception that the U.S. was just going to "take" the oil, or seize "lucrative oil contracts." Both arguments are, in my opinion, fucktarded. The US was never going to "take" the oil, and the implication that the war was entirely about something which the U.S. then didn't actually do is just too stupid for words. People who maintain this argument usually claim the U.S. was going to take the oil "except" something stopped it ("the public found out etc"), which is such a foolish argument I can't be bothered to address it.

Second, and slightly more sophisticated, is that the war was about oil contracts. Two blatant problems with that argument. First, oil exploitation contracts are incredibly unprofitable relative to the cost of the war. It would have been like investing $1000 to make a $1. Second, the bidding was open, and French and Brits and Chinese profited as much or more than the Americans. This theory thus requires some explanation about why the US embarked on a ludicrously unprofitable war, and the answer is usually some epic corruption story -- Halliburton doesn't care, it will spend $2 trillion in taxpayer money to make $20 billion for itself, muhahahah!

Again, super-stupid.

Far and away the strongest oil explanations are those which view the situation as an *oil supply threat* that the US set out to resolve. The international economy is critically dependent upon a continuing supply of oil, largely Middle Eastern in supply. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait demonstrated how vulnerable that supply was to political intrigues in the Middle East. It was crucial to establish control over the oil production system to get constant supply to the international markets. This ensures that the price is reasonable and the global economy is not hammered by oil shocks. Thus the key was never stealing oil, or making money on contracts. It was putting in place a system of political control that ensures the Middle East "plays nice" with the United States on oil production policy.

Put very short, the war was all about converting Iraq into Saudi Arabia. We don't steal Saudi Arabia's oil, and we don't make appreciable money on Saudi oil contracts. Yet because it works with us on ensuring the total global oil supply is workable, Saudi Arabia is arguably our most important ally -- or was, until fracking made the US oil independent. IMO, the Iraq War would never have happened after the rise of fracking made the U.S. so much less dependent on continuous ME oil supply.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and what's more, this is the exact point of the documentary, that since Carter the US has been drawing attention to the fact that the Straight of Hormuz holds the power of stopping global trade, and that its in the US interest to control it. The documentary shows clearly that the goal of the Iraq offensive was to stop Hussein's power over that supply channel, and also to maximise Iraq's oil productivity to push down prices, as his inefficiency of production was driving up global prices and hurting the US. So like I say, I wholeheartedly agree.

When anyone uses the argument that mass shipments of barrels of oil from Iraq to the US never took place, I think they are arguing a strawman.

However, the fact that the "for oil" argument is nuanced differentlt still does not take away from the outrage people should have over it for the following reasons

i) the utter nonsense we were peddled to build the consensus. Defending freedom, disarming an evildoer hellbent on global destruction. WMD's, links to 9/11, liberating the oppressed, spreading democracy, all of this was an utter smokescreen and we can now see that from early on in the Bush administration an excuse to get into Iraq was on the cards, and this is backed by verifiable documents and eye-witness testimony from some of the people involved. We were lied to and treated like idiots for this to take place.

ii) it was utterly catastrophic in how it was handled. It was so rushed and poorly administered that it ended up costing more than it saved in pure monetary terms, never mind the loss of life and pain. If we also factored in the loss of moral highground for any country invovled too, it becomes such a weighted equation as to almost be farce.

So once I agree, I think though that the outrage people have even with the nuanced argument is justified, and that the people who sold and supported the lie should be punished accordingly, however, I am out of the depth in if/how any punishment could be adminstered.
 
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Thanks Ronald Reagan new meme.

Just in case people are wondering these where the solar panels on the top of the White House when Ronald Reagan ordered their removal.

Before:
0815-White_House_Solar_Power_full_600.jpg
 
cartersolarpanels.jpg


Thanks Ronald Reagan new meme.

Just in case people are wondering these where the solar panels on the top of the White House when Ronald Reagan ordered their removal.

Before:
0815-White_House_Solar_Power_full_600.jpg

A fitting post. Carter's presidency would have been better had he not had the misfortune of the energy crisis.
 
For all the war for oil that's been spouted over the last decade has anyone ever stopped and asked where that oil is?

That's very simple. It's sold on the international market just like oil from anywhere else.
 
For all the war for oil that's been spouted over the last decade has anyone ever stopped and asked where that oil is?

In the same place its always been, it just has a more guaranteed supply now.

It would have been somewhat suspect had shipping tankers with tonnes of barrels started showing up in New York and London all of a sudden courtesy of Iraq. Even the diehard hawks would have had a hard time swallowing that one.
 
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