Why Trump is the candidate to fix trade

[VivaRevolution]

Workers in the rust belt would be too poor to buy their own products and wouldn't be able to afford anything at all without cheap Chinese products.

The Rust Belt sucking today isn't China's fault but China is a nice scapegoat, kinda like illegal immigrants and the Jews.

Why blame yourselves when you can blame foreigners?

LOL man. I used to buy union made clothing. You must have missed the post above where I said I was 35. Go sell your fairy tails to people that don't remember the 80's.

It was great, the products they made lasted for 20 years, and it supported a middle class wage, that not only allowed them to buy the products they made, but pay a mortgage, buy a car, take a vacation, ect.

You know back when our economy was built on the middle class, instead of financial bubbles.

 

[superpunch]

LOL man. I used to buy union made clothing. You must have missed the post above where I said I was 35. Go sell your fairy tails to people that don't remember the 80's.

It was great, the products they made lasted for 20 years, and it supported a middle class wage, that not only allowed them to buy the products they made, but pay a mortgage, buy a car, take a vacation, ect.

You know back when our economy was built on the middle class, instead of financial bubbles.

Maybe you should be against financial bubbles then. That would be a very sound economic policy.

 

[VivaRevolution]

See, if you actually followed the progression of the WTO and TPP, you'd know it to be a fact.
Clearly your foreign economic reading is about on par with the bandwagon you've jumped on.

We have already went over this strawman in this thread man. It is a fact today.

It is also a fact that China has said they are interested in joining TPP, and can be amended at any time to include them.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Maybe you should be against financial bubbles then. That would be a very sound economic policy.

The financial bubbles are how they hide the fact that our consumption is being destroyed, by destroying our middle class.

See they replace real middle class consumption with credit, financial tools, and speculation.

See this is why we went like 40 years without a real recession, and now we are in the great recession that has been running for almost a decade now.

The consumption has been destroyed.

 

[Ruprecht]

We have already went over this strawman in this thread man. It is a fact today.

It is also a fact that China has said they are interested in joining TPP, and can be amended at any time to include them.

There's no strawman here, do you know what a straw man argument is?
The opening statement you quoted Trump making about the TPP, shows he is either completely dishonest in his return to a fixation on China, completely ignorant of the realities of the TPP and it's emergence, or both.
It's a perfect example of the sort of rubbish Trumps spouts. Rubbish which would have destroyed his campaign if his supporters cared at all about substance or honesty.

I'm talking about why the TPP emerged in the first place. WTO talks had effectively stalled ever since China joined in 2001. The TPP was a shift to regional deals, with China as the major exclusion. The TPP does in fact address currency manipulation (not China's, because they aren't party to it), so Trumps criticism is nonsense.
If China wants in, that's good. Their exclusion from the formative process leaves them at a clear disadvantage though.

 

[VivaRevolution]

There's no strawman here, do you know what a straw man argument is?
The opening statement you quoted Trump making about the TPP, shows he is either completely dishonest in his return to a fixation on China, completely ignorant of the realities of the TPP and it's emergence, or both.
It's a perfect example of the sort of rubbish Trumps spouts. Rubbish which would have destroyed his campaign if his supporters cared at all about substance or honesty.

I'm talking about why the TPP emerged in the first place. WTO talks had effectively stalled ever since China joined in 2001. The TPP was a shift to regional deals, with China as the major exclusion. The TPP does in fact address currency manipulation (not China's, because they aren't party to it), so Trumps criticism is nonsense.
If China wants in, that's good. Their exclusion from the formative process leaves them at a clear disadvantage though.

You are talking about why TPP emerged in the first place.

Like I said, we have already been over all of this.

You are assuming Trump wasn't talking about China eventually being included.

I even conceded this could be plausible deniability on his part, but pointed out that if your answer can't fit in a 30 second sound bite, plausible deniability is the way to go, and this is the media's failing not Trump's.

 

[7437]

LOL man. I used to buy union made clothing. You must have missed the post above where I said I was 35. Go sell your fairy tails to people that don't remember the 80's.

It was great, the products they made lasted for 20 years, and it supported a middle class wage, that not only allowed them to buy the products they made, but pay a mortgage, buy a car, take a vacation, ect.

You know back when our economy was built on the middle class, instead of financial bubbles.

I doubt you remember much of the 80s, and I would bet you didnt buy jack shit. You would have been 9 when the 80s ended.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I doubt you remember much of the 80s, and I would bet you didnt buy jack shit. You would have been 9 when the 80s ended.

OK true, I remember going to K-mart(poor) when I was young, with my parents, and buying a Bart Simpson, "Don't have a cow man" T-shirt, that was made in America.

I remember the union made commercials for clothes.

I remember shirts lasting for 20 years.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Letting a 8 year old wear parachute pants, for the parenting loss.

 

[Ruprecht]

You are talking about why TPP emerged in the first place.

Like I said, we have already been over all of this.

Yes, I'm talking about the sort of basic foreign economic policy knowledge that anyone that claims to have a handle on such things should be well aware of, and which Trump failed to demonstrate.
I've read the thread. You sidestepped repeatedly and never addressed it meaningfully.

You are assuming Trump wasn't talking about China eventually being included.

No, I'm making no such assumption. In that case Trump's criticism also makes no sense, because the TPP does in fact address currency manipulation. It just doesn't penalise it with trade sanctions. It's regulation has largely been left to the G20 and IMF.

I even conceded this could be plausible deniability on his part, but pointed out that if your answer can't fit in a 30 second sound bite, plausible deniability is the way to go, and this is the media's failing not Trump's.

He didn't have enough time, so he gave an answer that was wrong and indicated a lack of understanding under any conceivable context?
What exactly is he "plausibly denying"...? Having the faintest clue on the subject he's supposedly addressing?

Bernie Sanders not only has policy ambition and a clearly defined ideological basis, but makes a consistent, logical argument for his objection to trade agreements.
Trump failed utterly, but he also opposes free trade agreements because... populism? ...and that's good enough?

 

[VivaRevolution]

Those first two quotes made trump look terrible so I'm thinking trolljob which I'd approve of. But the rest of the post made me unsure. I don't know what to feel.

I don't think they do make Trump look bad. He is saying he is against NAFTA, TPP, and our trade deal with China.

I don't think you guys realize how anti rigged trade people have become. The majority of Republicans, Democrats, and Independents have negative opinions, once more, as Michigan showed on the Dem side of the election, this issue actually moves votes. People change who they support based on their trade position.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

You would rather have a continuation of murder for profit in our war machine, our nation being looted by the billionaire class through trade and fraud, and watching the authority that makes the US constitution more than a piece of paper in the rule of law, destroyed in front of our very eyes with mission creep so no one gets too upset about it.

Unlike most Trump supporters, I won't vouch for Trump's good intentions, but I can promise you he will bring us real change.

I can also promise that Clinton will be a continuation of the last 24 years of the presidency. Things will not get better, they will just continue to get slowly worse. While everyone sits at home plugged into the idiot boxes.

Either Trump fixes things, or he lights the fuse to the political revolution this country so desperately needs!

Always surprised you to scow l at the "war machine" but work for a company that makes 35% of its multi billions from Arms deals

 

[skombolis]

I thought this OP was to mock Trump at his obvious ignorance of the facts until I got to the bottom. lol

How do you not understand that he is saying generic shit to appeal to people and doesn't even know what he is talking about? And even worse he's a huge hypocrite.

Anybody can stand in front of a mic and say things like make America great, keep jobs here, wall off those illegals, etc, etc. It's the country bumpkin approach to politics. It's like a rock band telling every city they play in that their fans are the best.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Yes, I'm talking about the sort of basic foreign economic policy knowledge that anyone that claims to have a handle on such things should be well aware of, and which Trump failed to demonstrate.
I've read the thread. You sidestepped repeatedly and never addressed it meaningfully.



No, I'm making no such assumption. In that case Trump's criticism also makes no sense, because the TPP does in fact address currency manipulation. It just doesn't penalise it with trade sanctions. It's regulation has largely been left to the G20 and IMF.



He didn't have enough time, so he gave an answer that was wrong and indicated a lack of understanding under any conceivable context?
What exactly is he "plausibly denying"...? Having the faintest clue on the subject he's supposedly addressing?

Bernie Sanders not only has policy ambition and a clearly defined ideological basis, but makes a consistent, logical argument for his objection to trade agreements.
Trump failed utterly, but he also opposes free trade agreements because... populism? ...and that's good enough?

I will repeat again. He shrugged off the criticism, because he can, because our media lacks legitimacy.

Because plausible deniability is a legit political response today, and has been for a while.

If Trump has an answer, and it took more than 2 minutes to explain, he would have been cut off. It behooves Trump to remain vague. Again, this is not Donald Trump's failing. Trump did not create the tools he is using right now. Identity politics is not new.

You seem to be making the argument though that Trumps legitimacy should be in question, when Clinton worked on it for 5 years, and now opposes it. Seems like a strange idea to me.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Always surprised you to scow l at the "war machine" but work for a company that makes 35% of its multi billions from Arms deals

I justify it with working commercial side, and my union activity. It's a middle class job built on manufacturing.

Not a fan of course, of the defense side.

It's a rationalization, I know.

 

[Rod1]

Cmon man, you dont understand how a trade deal can be written in such a way that favors corporations and screws the people ?
Of course I think crony capitalism is a problem. Its what causes deals like NAFTA and TPP to be written.
We have had this discussion before and I think your opinion on the subject is biased and skewed against America tbh.

Again, you think that with protectionism crony capitalism will be less of a problem?

Actually i admire american entrepeneurship, the reason they want to open the worlds markets is because they know they can win the game and offer the best service.

 

[Ruprecht]

I will repeat again. He shrugged off the criticism, because he can, because our media lacks legitimacy.

Because plausible deniability is a legit political response today, and has been for a while.

If Trump has an answer, and it took more than 2 minutes to explain, he would have been cut off. It behooves Trump to remain vague. Again, this is not Donald Trump's failing. Trump did not create the tools he is using right now. Identity politics is not new.

You seem to be making the argument though that Trumps legitimacy should be in question, when Clinton worked on it for 5 years, and now opposes it. Seems like a strange idea to me.

"Because it works politically" doesn't defend Trump's ridiculous rhetoric or vague non-answers when it comes to his actual potential to effectively address economic issues.
I'm sure Trump had heard about the TPP being weak on currency manipulation, if only from the other candidates, but it was abundantly clear that he was even weaker on the actual details of the TPP and the policy rationale behind it.

Bringing up Clinton is deflection. Regardless, Clinton has given substantial answers for her flip flopping on the issue. She doesn't support it because it didn't go far enough in her opinion, not because she's ideologically opposed to neoliberalism. Trump has neither made an effective criticism, outlined a coherent basis for his positions, nor ever addressed his flip flopping on issues.

 

[VivaRevolution]

"Because it works politically" doesn't defend Trump's ridiculous rhetoric or vague non-answers when it comes to his actual potential to effectively address economic issues.
I'm sure Trump had heard about the TPP being weak on currency manipulation, if only from the other candidates, but it was abundantly clear that he was even weaker on the actual details of the TPP and the policy rationale behind it.

Bringing up Clinton is deflection. Regardless, Clinton has given substantial answers for her flip flopping on the issue. She doesn't support it because it didn't go far enough in her opinion, not because she's ideologically opposed to neoliberalism. Trump has neither made an effective criticism, outlined a coherent basis for his positions, nor ever addressed his flip flopping on issues.

Here is where we disagree. Trump is single handedly taking on the RNC/DNC/and media, and is winning. Apparently he is some kind of retard savant here.

We all know I am a Bernie supporter, but we live in a two party system. My choices are Trump, or Clinton. Comparing Clinton's legitimacy is more than fair game.

My argument from the get go, has been that a Republican president without being beholden to party or special interest, is in a unique position to effect change within his party on this populist issue, and has natural allies already in place across the aisle. These are the reasons I believe Trump is the best candidate to change trade.

 

[superpunch]

Here is where we disagree. Trump is single handedly taking on the RNC/DNC/and media, and is winning. Apparently he is some kind of retard savant here.

Trump himself is a genius, probably the most intelligent person running for president. The poorly educated answers are part of a character he plays.

I'm voting for Trump. Not the character he plays, but the actual Trump.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Again, you think that with protectionism crony capitalism will be less of a problem?

Actually i admire american entrepeneurship, the reason they want to open the worlds markets is because they know they can win the game and offer the best service.

I think it would be less of a problem for workers, wages, and the leverage for unions, yes.