Why should submission attempts score points?

I disagree with awarding points due to a half assed submission attempt. People would start trying "armbars" out of nowhere, with little chance of ever locking them in.

A tight submission attention that the opponent happens to escape should be awarded points.
 
Yes, it hurts a lot and you will feel it the rest of the fight. You will also lose a ton of energy fighting out of it.

My thought also is that while you are defending and fighting to get out of the sub attempt, you are not doing anything offensively (except in instances where, say, you roll for a kneebar and the guy starts hitting you while preventing you from straightening the leg). So of course the guy initiating sub attempts is winning that portion of the fight even if the sub does not get completed. The guy on the defensive is prevented from doing anything of note other than defending/surviving and those do not win a round/fight.

Of course, in a situation where a fighter clearly is outstriking, outwrestling and hurting his opponent but then almost gets a gullotined off a takedown but gets out of it, then said attempt would not be enough to win a round but it's a case by case thing. I never subscribed to the notion of guys like Magalhaes that sub attempts that do not lead to a sub are meaningless because they are not actually close to ending the fight in many cases. Being on the offense and forcing your opponent to limit his own offense so as to defend what you are attacking with is still controlling the fight.
 
Nothing except strikes should score in MMA. Everything else is a technique used to setup effective strikes (standing or on the ground).

Edit - barring no clear winner based on strikes or a successful submission (should it go to a decision), control and aggression become the next determining factors.
 
They should just do it like Letwei, no finish = draw.
As much as I like this idea, it wouldn't work and would likely kill viewership.

Human beings need definitive answers and closure. We don't do well with grey areas and indecisiveness. Even a bad decision is more settling than a draw for your average viewer.
 
I have a burning desire to put TS in a tight submission.
 
When you lay on top of someone, you drain their energy, you land some damage to them, etc. You're doing something that's bad for the other guy. That's why it scores points.

Does a failed armbar hurt the other guy? Does it drain his cardio? I think usually the guy going for subs is wasting more energy. Why should failed submission attempts score points?


Have you been armbared or almost submitted before?...no1 would ask what your asking unless you havent..

It score points cuz it was a close almost fight ending move..its essentially a pure grapplers version of a knockdown..

What a knockdown is for a striker a close submission is too a pure grappler..IMO
 
The first point here is that not all failed subs are equal. Big difference between for example Vitor's armbar attempt on Jones and a half-assed guillotine someone tries as they're getting taken down.

Sometimes failed joint submissions or chokes can still do damage, but that's hard to score.

Subs can also take a lot of energy to defend, so they're offensively significant as a way of exhausting the opponent. This is also problematic because the reverse is also common : you can burn out your arms trying to crank a sub and that's tactically an advantage for the defender. A better grappler can and will bait their opponent into doing this, eg Khabibi and Dustin's guillotine.

Sub attempts from a dominant position that don't compromise your position (choke attempts from the back, Kimura attempts from side control, arm triangles etc) can show dominance and control of the fight. The guy who's doing them is pretty clearly winning and showing that given time they could realistically finish the fight, especially if they maintain the position for a long time. It's hard to defend indefinitely.

In general this is a pretty nuanced question and there's no universal answer.


Yeah...close fight ending subs count..weak or half ass attempts dont unless you chain that into sweep or something
 
Have you been armbared or almost submitted before?...no1 would ask what your asking unless you havent..

It score points cuz it was a close almost fight ending move..its essentially a pure grapplers version of a knockdown..

What a knockdown is for a striker a close submission is too a pure grappler..IMO
Yeah, you get out of it and you're OK like 2 seconds later. Often the other dude spends as much or more energy going for the submission anyways. Get knocked down and you're dizzy, you lose 20 IQ points for the next 20 minutes.. that's real shit that should score points.
 
Yeah, you get out of it and you're OK like 2 seconds later. Often the other dude spends as much or more energy going for the submission anyways. Get knocked down and you're dizzy, you lose 20 IQ points for the next 20 minutes.. that's real shit that should score points.

Naw..

A close armbar or kimura (especial kimura) and your arm is jacked for the remained of the fight and fighting off a close submissions usually takes either an explosive movement which uses energy or a prolonged method of slowly removing the attacking person all while dealing with pain and resisting very tiring and nerve racking..

Not to mention moves like kneebars or heel hooks those even if survived definetly affect you afterwards

Remember If you dont tap or escape in time..your arm,elbow or shoulder or leg/ankle will be torn /broken...thats a major mindfuck for most people
 
As much as I like this idea, it wouldn't work and would likely kill viewership.

Human beings need definitive answers and closure. We don't do well with grey areas and indecisiveness. Even a bad decision is more settling than a draw for your average viewer.
It just means fighters have a legitimate rivalry over a couple of fights. It would be cool to me if Nate and Masvidal have like 3 fights until one of them gets finished.

edit: yes Nate officially got finished but it didn’t feel like a real finish.
 
It just means fighters have a legitimate rivalry over a couple of fights. It would be cool to me if Nate and Masvidal have like 3 fights until one of them gets finished.

edit: yes Nate officially got finished but it didn’t feel like a real finish.
I feel ya.....unfortunately people won't continue to pay $60 for ties.
 
I think as a judge, you have to ascertain if an " attempt" is threatening or not. If a fighter is put in a position where he HAS TO defend then I have no problem with scoring points( its mma). Now - if a bjj guy just drags you down and is able to just stall because of his knowledge of leverage and hooks but cant threaten and do anything then he better hope ref doesnt stand em up. He stands them up after 4 minutes of nothing and in final minute , opponent scores with strikes ( especially a few significant strikes) then I'm giving round to stand up fighter who is actually trying to finish his opponent.

It's a fine line and that's why we need the best judges available ( preferably former fighters).

I've seen too much bullshit over the years.
 
When you lay on top of someone, you drain their energy, you land some damage to them, etc. You're doing something that's bad for the other guy. That's why it scores points.
Does a failed armbar hurt the other guy? Does it drain his cardio? I think usually the guy going for subs is wasting more energy. Why should failed submission attempts score points?

Because IT'S A FIGHT, genius.
Because A FIGHT = AGGRESSION

Because striking = aggression.
Because going for an armbar/choke = aggression.

"Covering up from punches" = NOT fighting, defending.
"Trying to get out of an armbar" = NOT fighting, defending.

THAT'S WHY, genius.

Because people pay to see A FIGHT ... each man trying to hurt the other.
The one who is at least TRYING to hurt the other guy deserves more points than the guy "trying not to get hurt" ...
 
Because IT'S A FIGHT, genius.
Because A FIGHT = AGGRESSION

Because striking = aggression.
Because going for an armbar/choke = aggression.

"Covering up from punches" = NOT fighting, defending.
"Trying to get out of an armbar" = NOT fighting, defending.

THAT'S WHY, genius.

Because people pay to see A FIGHT ... each man trying to hurt the other.
The one who is at least TRYING to hurt the other guy deserves more points than the guy "trying not to get hurt" ...
360 tornado kicks and kung fu are "trying to finish". You don't get points for trying bullshit. Submissions are low % moves that don't hurt.
 
It’s a fair question, but the answer in my opinion is that the point of judging a fight that goes the distance is to determine who fought better. That doesn’t just mean who left the most cuts and bruises, but who most imposed their will to work towards a finish.

A guy who pulls guard for a guillotine that his opponent pops out of immediately gets nothing. But consider Warley Alves vs Randy Brown round 1, or Charles Oliveira vs Paul Felder round 1, and you see examples of one fighter taking control and putting his opponent in serious danger that the opponent was fortunate to escape.

Then there are subs that clearly damage or inflict pain on the opponent, like the Victor armbar on Jones. That’s gotta count as much as devastating calf kicks.

I understand the counterargument. Honestly though, these days we don’t often see guys getting decent sub attempts against the flow of the round, at least without using it to change the flow of that round. It’s not like the old days when guys were getting pounded and then throwing up a triangle or armbar out of nowhere.
 
The judging system should promote finishes IMO.
This is a sport for the spectators. Not a sport for the fighters picking points.

But judges has to know what an actual finish attempt looks like.
 
Because it's advantageous for the guy doing the submission and disadvantageous for the guy defending. If hypothetically an entire fight was nothing but chain submission attempts then the submission guy should win because he's KEEPING his opponent in dangerous positions. Much like wall and stallers. They should technically win because even though they can't take their opponent down, they are still the ones dictating that the fight isn't out in the open and he pinning the other fighter against the fence where they don't want to be.

But it also depends on how deep or secure it was. A lazy attempt on a submission that barely makes it past the first setup move is worthless.
 
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