Why only $15 an hour?

[M3t4tr0n]

Well as soon as we have a floor on it, I don't think it's really UBI. If that is what the platform contains, I would say this already is happening more than you would think in our tax code alone, especially if you are a single parent. We have programs to fill the gaps for those who make less right now. The argument of it being higher or lower is understandable but UBI imo essentially is already part of system in the most sensible way it currently can be. Maybe a century or so from now this will be more likely but I'd also argue the automation of production keeps goods or services cheaper which means the safety net can stay lower for a person to get by. The government should want markets to make commodities cheap.

I guess UBI simplifies what we already have. Instead of a person in need having to pull from several different places ( welfare, tax code, wic etc.) they get it at once in one lump sum from one source monthly. Easy peasy extra cheesy.

 

[VivaRevolution]

It's also just obvious. Like I said before, plenty of small businesses handle wages between 10-15 per hour just fine. It's really the fast food industry that's dragging ass on this, and they have the least amount of reasons to pay jack shit.

I would blame all box stores in this regard. If we are a service economy now, then those service jobs need to pay a living wage.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Thats rich.

 

[VivaRevolution]

You're haven't thought this through. Small business owners are not super-rich, and won't be able to afford expensive workers.

If you are serious, I would ask why Henry Ford didn't go bankrupt then.

 

[vespasian]

If you are serious, I would ask why Henry Ford didn't go bankrupt then.

I am absolutely serious. You apparently know little of the world of small business owners. Small business people recognize that happy employees make good employees, but frequently they simply can't afford to pay them as much as they'd like. You can't mandate good incomes for everybody.

It's not always about the class struggle between the capitalists and the proletarians.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I am absolutely serious. You apparently know little of the world of small business owners. Small business people recognize that happy employees make good employees, but frequently they simply can't afford to pay them as much as they'd like. You can't mandate good incomes for everybody.

Again, Henry Ford proved this idea wrong.

You pay people more, People spend more, and your revenues go up.

 

[NewGuardBjj]

You're haven't thought this through. Small business owners are not super-rich, and won't be able to afford expensive workers.

I've got anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that doesn't matter. Lots of economists have thought about this very question. Here's the out come. A third say min wage increase would help. A third say it wouldn't. And the other third say I don't know either way. Additionally, economic studies show evidence for both sides.

It's over due and we can take the relatively small risk that there would be a relatively small chance of a relatively small economic downturn.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

To be more accurate you would have to include a lot more in the first panel than just the DNC

 

[VivaRevolution]

To be more accurate you would have to include a lot more in the first panel than just the DNC

True enough, we could go back to the end of WWII, and put Uncle Sam in that picture.

 

[VivaRevolution]

It's over due and we can take the relatively small risk that there would be a relatively small chance of a relatively small economic downturn.

And this is key, because sane people that support raising the MW want it done in stepped increments. Yeah raise the MW to 15$ an hour........by 2020. That works out to raising it by a bit over a dollar each year. If we see bad economic indicators, then we can put the next stepped incremental MW raise on hold until economic indicators recover.

 

[vespasian]

I've got anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that doesn't matter. Lots of economists have thought about this very question. Here's the out come. A third say min wage increase would help. A third say it wouldn't. And the other third say I don't know either way. Additionally, economic studies show evidence for both sides.

It's over due and we can take the relatively small risk that there would be a relatively small chance of a relatively small economic downturn.

'Lots of economists'.... I'm talking from experience. If you want to start a small business in San Francisco for example, you have a large rent, a business loan to pay back, you're perhaps renting equipment, and you're struggling to establish yourself. And you have to pay someone who you have to train at the very least $13.00/ hour, to say nothing of benefits. The math simply doesnt work out, you conclude that it's better to not open the business.

Everybody loses.

 

[vespasian]

Again, Henry Ford proved this idea wrong.

You pay people more, People spend more, and your revenues go up.

Your perspective is biased by working for big companies. Union workers do feel entitled, dont they.


Why dont you try opening a small business, see just how hard it is.

 

[VivaRevolution]

'Lots of economists'.... I'm talking from experience. If you want to start a small business in San Francisco for example, you have a large rent, a business loan to pay back, you're perhaps renting equipment, and you're struggling to establish yourself. And you have to pay someone who you have to train at the very least $13.00/ hour, to say nothing of benefits. The math simply doesnt work out, you conclude that it's better to not open the business.

Everybody loses.

That just isn't true. You raise prices to pay your cost if their is a market for your products. This creates inflation.

Hence earlier in the thread where I pointed out that we have printed 20 trillion dollars since 2008, with no inflation, and that this is why the FED and monetary policy exist.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Your perspective is biased by working for big companies. Union workers do feel entitled, dont they.


Why dont you try opening a small business, see just how hard it is.

I'm not arguing it isn't hard.

I'm arguing your economics are wrong.

 

[CableandThanos]

Unless of course you get more business because people have more money to purchase whatever product or service your company provides.

By your rational Henry Ford should have went out of business.

But now all his cost have gone up so any increase in sales is wiped out due to increased cost of goods. if everybody is making more, then everybody raises prices. its not like shit stays the same price.

 

[vespasian]

That just isn't true. You raise prices to pay your cost if their is a market for your products.

What are you talking to me in generalities? I described a concrete scenario. A beginning small business simply can't afford to hire full time employees if the min wage is $15 as it is in places like SF. Not because the owner is greedy, but because the math doesn't work out. SO the end result is that you only hire part-time, and nobody is happy.

 

[NewGuardBjj]

'Lots of economists'.... I'm talking from experience. If you want to start a small business in San Francisco for example, you have a large rent, a business loan to pay back, you're perhaps renting equipment, and you're struggling to establish yourself. And you have to pay someone who you have to train at the very least $13.00/ hour, to say nothing of benefits. The math simply doesnt work out, you conclude that it's better to not open the business.

Everybody loses.

Yes, lots of economists - who are talking from data.

Your model is contrived and bogus, but whatever. Here's my response: then you don't open a business and instead get a job working for the person that had the money to open the business you thought you could.

 

[vespasian]

Yes, lots of economists - who are talking from data.

Your model is contrived and bogus, but whatever. Here's my response: then you don't open a business and instead get a job working for the person that had the money to open the business you thought you could.

It's not a 'model', it's reality for some of us.

So yes, you're right, the result of setting unrealistic min wage will be increased unemployment, and you'll inhibit job creation in the small business sector.

That's dumb, but socialism has always been self-defeating.

 

[NewGuardBjj]

And this is key, because sane people that support raising the MW want it done in stepped increments. Yeah raise the MW to 15$ an hour........by 2020. That works out to raising it by a bit over a dollar each year. If we see bad economic indicators, then we can put the next stepped incremental MW raise on hold until economic indicators recover.

That's a tight game plan. Ida just fucked everything up and bumped it to 25 out the gate.

 

[NewGuardBjj]

That's dumb, but socialism has always been self-defeating.

Yeah, fuck Obama!