Why do I still not think Jones is goat?

[BFoe]

Ranked wins is a rather arbitrary mark though. A lot of the guys he faced were highly ranked, not just ranked. With long sample sizes of longevity to back them up, not just a flash in the pan ranking like Dan Hardy or Brett Rogers.

Jones last 3 or 4 fights at LHW were not memorable guys, but most of the guys he beat were pretty substantial in the MMA landscape. If you were to make an all time list of LHW's, many of them (perhaps half?) would be guys Jon Jones beat, and they were reasonably close to their primes. Stipe was really the only great guy he beat who was a jabroni due to age.

I’d argue it’s much more arbitrary now, when a finger is ranked largely because the UFC says they are, rather than being ranked by outside observers who have great fighters among multiple orgs to rank. Ranked fighters used to mean “best in the world,” not “best fighter in the UFC because the UFC says so.”

Hell, even metrics we traditionally looked at like title wins or title defenses are becoming more subjective, as the UFC passes belts and interim belts around like a slutty cheerleader at a frat party.

I can’t think of any ranked win Fedor has that was a jabroni due to age. *Maybe* you could make that case about Coleman, although Coleman was only a ranked win the first time they fought, not the 2nd. And what you said about flashes in the pan is a rarity for both Fedor and Jones. And I could say the same thing about ranking the best HWs all time— that list should include guys like Nog, Cro Cop, Arlovski, Mir, Sylvia is maybe not quite top 10 all time but close… I could say the same thing about GSP if we rank WWs all time, with guys like Hughes, Fitch, Diaz, Condit, etc.

I guess the point is: what are these amazing metrics that Jones has accomplished that are far above and beyond anyone else? It’s not ranked wins, win streak, title wins, title defenses… so what is it?

It is nonsense. No one has accomplished 40% of what Jon did. Fuck that 50% BS.

That would maybe be true if we were counting failed PED tests.

 

[Iamwill43119]

im kinda in the same boat as OP. I think a lot of his success has been due to his size advantage over most of his opponents except for Gus, Reyes Stipe and Gane. but the guy has had a considerable reach and height advantage over 90% of his opponents. Another thing is that Jones really isn't great anywhere as far as striking and wrestling goes. Maybe his wrestling is pretty good but like I said earlier his height and reach also play into his success. Has he ever knocked anyone out? I can't think of anyone being KO'd by Jones. He's just not great at anything I can think of but he keeps winning so he's doing something right I guess

 

[IsNormal]

I don't see how it's relevant to the GOAT debate that Jon's an asshole that lacks humility.
If it was a "favorite fighter" debate, sure. Or if it was an award ceremony, sure - we don't wanna put Jon forward on TV as someone to celebrate. But GOAT debates should mainly be about performance and skill imo.

It's fine to disqualify him for PEDs though (but then you kinda also should disqualify Anderson (allthough I get it, being caught multiple times in your prime is worse than being caught once at an old age)

The close fights with Gus and what’s his face , that a lot of people thought he Lost

Yeah Jon should have lost to Reyes 100% and could've lost to Gus and Santos.

But in defense of this: 3 bad fights is not that high when you consider he's had 16 title fights.
I used to see people comparing Jon to Khabib in this area, but since Khabib only had 4 title fights it's worth mentioning he'd probably also struggle sooner or later if he had 3x that amount.
After all Jon blazed through his first 6 title fights before struggling against Gus in the 7th.

His lack of knockouts in a big man division bothers me

Well, it's true he had a long stretch where he did not finish seemingly inferior opponents.
But it's not that bad - in his 17 fights since he first fought for the title in 2011:

9 finishes: Shogun, Rampage, Lyoto, Vitor, Chael, DC 2, Gus 2, Gane, Stipe
8 decisions: Rashad, Gus 1, Glover, DC 1, OSP, Smith, Santos (split), Reyes (should've lost)

I also think it's a huge plus for Jon that HE's never been KO'd
Or even remotely close to it - he's never really even been badly rocked, never put in a spot where it looked like he was saved by the bell. Worst trouble he was ever in was the Vitor armbar.
That's also an accomplishment for example when comparing to GSP or Aldo.

It's insane Jon's had 24 UFC fights and not been knocked down by a lucky punch.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

So many people on steroids in MMA. Seems trivial, petty, and arbitrary to single out Jon the way that some of you people do.

 

[Michael Wetzel]

Silva failed a drug test. GSP got gifts of decisions over Penn and Hendricks. Fedor often crushed cans. We can always find detractions for anyone.

 

[loisestrad]

im kinda in the same boat as OP. I think a lot of his success has been due to his size advantage over most of his opponents except for Gus, Reyes Stipe and Gane. but the guy has had a considerable reach and height advantage over 90% of his opponents. Another thing is that Jones really isn't great anywhere as far as striking and wrestling goes. Maybe his wrestling is pretty good but like I said earlier his height and reach also play into his success. Has he ever knocked anyone out? I can't think of anyone being KO'd by Jones. He's just not great at anything I can think of but he keeps winning so he's doing something right I guess

Why are you so focused on his height and reach, as if it was kinda cheating? I would get it if Jones was clearly a hw who cut to lhw for an advantage.

But it isn't so. Jones is clearly not build like a hw. He's not a natural hw. He's a natural lhw, who happens to be tall and have reach, while not being lanky.

Simply put: When leaving out PED's which is a reasonable reason to disregard Jones as GOAT, there's not a single reason to believe he's not. Him ducking Ngannou, ducking Tom, is fan fiction.

Who knows, maybe he did duck Ngannou, maybe he does duck Tom. It's still not based on what we actually know, what has actually happened in the realms of actual fighting. It's fiction, it's speculation.

And obviously all the personal stuff, the coke, the driving drunk, the beating of his fioncee has nothing to do with Jones the fighter.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

Cause he cheated so many times?

He's dqd from the conversation. It's completely normal to feel this way

Rentfree

 

[BFoe]

So many people on steroids in MMA. Seems trivial, petty, and arbitrary to single out Jon the way that some of you people do.

Well tbf, we’re talking about GOAT status here. We know Barnett had several PED failures for example, but no one is putting him up as a GOAT candidate. I’d say the same thing about Silva’s failed tests as I do about Jones’.

 

[ricc505]

John is a great fighter. Goat is a stupid, stupid term, it's a asinine concept. Sports break down their eras. John may possess the best skills and physical attributes of a fighter of his era but to presume he's the greatest of all time? Stupid. Next define greatest. Is greatness winning or is it warrior spirit? Is greatness sportsmanship, being a roll model in and out of fighting? I'm my opinion greatness goes beyond your record. Goat arguments always break down to GSP vs Fedor vs Jones. Is you took GSP or Fedor out if the argument. The fans of truly great fighters probably stack up against Jones

 

[Billthebutcher]

Love that Jon's training with the steroid goat Gordon. They go hand in hand.

 

[m249viking]

It's because you like many others are unable to separate their own emotions/biases from reality

You could make a list like that with any other GOAT candidate

Facts are that no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has when you look at the records, accolades, resume, and number of titles won

No other goat candidate went under the same strict testing Jones did under USADA so trying to discredit him with PED use also doesn't work, and his personal life is irrelevant to his fighting career

When you look at the facts and numbers there is no argument

Fact is Jones has never competed on a level playing field so any assessment of his performance is flawed.

 

[FriskyRandy]

It's likely because you have morality issues.

Someone that takes steroids can not be considered a goat.
Especially in a sport where people get hurt.

He's a piece of shit.

 

[NoSmilez]

OP made this thread because god wants to test Jon Jones.

 

[Skarsgard]

It's all subjective. There are a lot of guys who have a decent claim to the best ever. Jones is unbelievably talented, but he fights/fought in the two weakest divisions. GSP fought in arguably the toughest, but he lacks finishes. Anderson and Aldo had the aura of invincibility, but both fell off once their reflexes started going.

 

[markg171]

No other goat candidate went under the same strict testing Jones did under USADA so trying to discredit him with PED use also doesn't work, and his personal life is irrelevant to his fighting career

It is pretty funny how this is literally true yet they still fall back on the excuse. It's been 8 years since his last fail and he's still winning just like he was before. That 8 years alone is a HOF career, let alone everything before it even if you did want to say it doesn't count.

It's almost like it's never been the PEDs and they just want whatever desperate excuse they can cling to.

 

[markg171]

No such list exists for GSP. You could say gsp lacks the knockouts but TS clarified he was talking about the big boys divisions.

But I agree, jones is the GOAT on paper. He seems to have the personality abd morals of a criminal and he's cheated many times but you cannot argue his record. He should have an undefeated record and he's done it over a long period of time in two weight divisions. The stipe win adds nothing to his legacy but even without it he's a next level dominant champion.

If you want to discredit his achievements based on steroids then that's a reasonable take. If you want to discredit him as a human being for his repeated and consistent shitty behavior, I think that's also a reasonable take.

But if you're not a steroid-cheating-disqualifying hardliner, there's really no argument. He's the best.

I can see this point of view and agree with it. GSP and mighty mouse are the goats if you consider admirable behavior and lack of cheating as factors. And why shouldn't we? If we were talking about war, who is th3 best warrior, then sure, eho cares how crude and savage the soldier on your side is as long as he keeps the enemies on the other side of the city walls.

But we aren't. We are talking about sport. Highly structured and rule-controlled contests.

GSP has:

- GreaseGate against BJ 2
- WeighInGate against Diaz
- VADAGate against both Condit and Hendricks

He's hardly been flawless. He's just been very careful to be among and perceived as the most professional MMA's had yet. He was the first to really "get" that he's needs that image of a professional athlete too, not just a fighter who should be wearing TapOut because he's a fighter bro.

People are just willing to ignore black marks on their preferred GOATs. That's all.

 

[ferrisjso]

It is pretty funny how this is literally true yet they still fall back on the excuse. It's been 8 years since his last fail and he's still winning just like he was before. That 8 years alone is a HOF career, let alone everything before it even if you did want to say it doesn't count.

It's almost like it's never been the PEDs and they just want whatever desperate excuse they can cling to.

Jones had 1 positive test for an opponent he beat clean and everything else is just hateful fanfiction.

Jones was the GOAT since 2012 everything else has just been extra.

 

[Skarsgard]

Silva failed a drug test. GSP got gifts of decisions over Penn and Hendricks. Fedor often crushed cans. We can always find detractions for anyone.

Hendricks winning would have been a travesty and I will die on that hill. Penn was closer, but i still think he lost the second and third.

 

[Tweak896]

If a fighter's personality bothers you so much, would you like it if they were humble on camera? Pretended to be nice, while still being an asshole behind the scenes? Probably not. I mean essentially you are saying you can never like someone. Plenty of other fighters who act humble do POS things between fights, but act humble and kind when cameras roll. It's all a show good or bad.

 

[BFoe]

It's fine to disqualify him for PEDs though (but then you kinda also should disqualify Anderson (allthough I get it, being caught multiple times in your prime is worse than being caught once at an old age)

Anderson popped twice actually, and I agree those should be viewed as disqualifying as well.