Why did the Lions Den fall apart?

[immyaxl]

interesting take on Ken saving mma. I think more people were watching to see Tito lose than Ken win. Tito is the one who drew the ppv buys with his antics while Ken played the straight man.

Nah, MMA was still in the dark age period at that point. Ken brought over the pro wrestling fans with him which was a much bigger audience at the time. UFC 40 was the first PPV that Zuffa was involved with that got any mainstream publicity. Ken was hands down the biggest star the UFC had at the time. Beating Ken was what made Tito a star outside of the most hardcore fans.

 

[Kforcer]

Nah, MMA was still in the dark age period at that point. Ken brought over the pro wrestling fans with him which was a much bigger audience at the time. UFC 40 was the first PPV that Zuffa was involved with that got any mainstream publicity. Ken was hands down the biggest star the UFC had at the time. Beating Ken was what made Tito a star outside of the most hardcore fans.

Yep. No doubt about that.

 

[BigTruck]

Nah, MMA was still in the dark age period at that point. Ken brought over the pro wrestling fans with him which was a much bigger audience at the time. UFC 40 was the first PPV that Zuffa was involved with that got any mainstream publicity. Ken was hands down the biggest star the UFC had at the time. Beating Ken was what made Tito a star outside of the most hardcore fans.

Ken also plays with butt plugs.

 

[finalboss]

Too much of a focus on bodybuilding.

 

[Kowboy Karl]

Ran out of juice

 

[NickDiaz]

 

[HHJ]

interesting take on Ken saving mma. I think more people were watching to see Tito lose than Ken win. Tito is the one who drew the ppv buys with his antics while Ken played the straight man.

You have to understand the amount of people who ordered who never watched UFC,and knew ken from wwf. UFC's name reached a new level because of this fight. Ken brought in alot of ouside interest at that time.

 

[Tankeray]

More importantly- why the fook did Jabtoucher get banned

 

[HHJ]

Hammer House > Lions Den.

Btw did anyone see that Frye/Takayama fight just now? holy shit.

No MMA fan has not watched that fight 100 times by now imo tbh ngl

 

[HHJ]

The casuals all thought ken would destroy tito and thats what they were hoping to see.

 

[HHJ]

At least neither of them got spit on, like poor Oyama.

But the craziest part was Bob Sapp. The Beast is something else, icing a dude like Tamura that Frank Shamrock couldn't beat in 21 seconds or something.

Sapp weights like 200 lbs more than Tamura. That probably had something to do with it

 

[HHJ]

Here's my memory of the Lodi, CA gym closing down.

Ken went to wrestling and we didn't see him again. We didn't have a purpose after that in my opinion. Ken was the figurehead but the fights and the management came under him with Bob - Frank was on his own for a few weeks running classes with Scott and Vernon. It happened pretty fast after that. I remember Scott saying its over. From my memory, Frank moved to the bay area and Mo Smith went with him. Nothing against Guy, but I only saw him in Lodi three or four times in the years I was there. I started hanging out after UFC 1 through the breakup of the gym. Dudes would show up and train like a camp before an event - That's when I saw Guy or Tre.

The gym wasn't like a school either. If it was an organized thing, it would have lasted. Nobody paid for classes or signed a waiver that I remember. No advertisements or anything. The gym was in an industrial park and looked like an auto body shop. I think at the height of the popularity about 12 of us would show up and roll around. Scott, Frank, Vernon, and the other fighters would teach classes.

Hope that helps some of you understand the story a little more. It was a great time in my life and looking back - we were all just kids with zero clue what we were experiencing in the moment. If you told me I'd be telling stories about the Lions Den back then I would have laughed. Back then, we didn't have forums like this - we all kept up in this giant email thread hahaha.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Xuh]

It went downhill fast when Shammy & the boyz were hit by that train...

 

[TheMaster]

Here's my memory of the Lodi, CA gym closing down.

Ken went to wrestling and we didn't see him again. We didn't have a purpose after that in my opinion. Ken was the figurehead but the fights and the management came under him with Bob - Frank was on his own for a few weeks running classes with Scott and Vernon. It happened pretty fast after that. I remember Scott saying its over. From my memory, Frank moved to the bay area and Mo Smith went with him. Nothing against Guy, but I only saw him in Lodi three or four times in the years I was there. I started hanging out after UFC 1 through the breakup of the gym. Dudes would show up and train like a camp before an event - That's when I saw Guy or Tre.

The gym wasn't like a school either. If it was an organized thing, it would have lasted. Nobody paid for classes or signed a waiver that I remember. No advertisements or anything. The gym was in an industrial park and looked like an auto body shop. I think at the height of the popularity about 12 of us would show up and roll around. Scott, Frank, Vernon, and the other fighters would teach classes.

Hope that helps some of you understand the story a little more. It was a great time in my life and looking back - we were all just kids with zero clue what we were experiencing in the moment. If you told me I'd be telling stories about the Lions Den back then I would have laughed. Back then, we didn't have forums like this - we all kept up in this giant email thread hahaha.

That's a great insight.
Do you have and funny/interesting stories from your time there?
Was it really as hardcore as the rep?
Ken was trained by Karl Gotch so I am sure that's where he got a lot of it.

You have to understand the amount of people who ordered who never watched UFC,and knew ken from wwf. UFC's name reached a new level because of this fight. Ken brought in alot of ouside interest at that time.

Yes, people forget without Ken UFC may not even be here now.
As Goldie described Ken at UFC 40
"He is as powerful as the sport itself".

 

[Kforcer]

Sapp weights like 200 lbs more than Tamura. That probably had something to do with it

Well, yeah. True. But I mean, its a shocking thing when an all-time great who drew with Frank Shamrock during Frank's prime, beat Jeremy Horn, Pat Militech, Renzo Gracie, Dave Menne, Minowa, etc. hit flying armbars at 180-some pounds, gets beat by a relative neophyte.

I mean, there was something kinda crazy about seeing Sapp's raw power in against the world-class skills of a Tamura or an Ernesto Hoost in K-1.

 

[HHJ]

Well, yeah. True. But I mean, its a shocking thing when an all-time great who drew with Frank Shamrock during Frank's prime, beat Jeremy Horn, Pat Militech, Renzo Gracie, Dave Menne, Minowa, etc. hit flying armbars at 180-some pounds, gets beat by a relative neophyte.

I mean, there was something kinda crazy about seeing Sapp's raw power in against the world-class skills of a Tamura or an Ernesto Hoost in K-1.

I dont compare Tamura to Ernesto Hoost.

Tamura was "pretty good"

Ernesto Hoost is one of the greatest fighters in the history of all combat sports.

 

[HHJ]

Anyway,Sapp was a freak. Things that should make sense go out the window with a guy like that.

He really did seem to lose his balls after Mirko smashed his eye socket in.

 

[Kforcer]

I dont compare Tamura to Ernesto Hoost.

Tamura was "pretty good"

Ernesto Hoost is one of the greatest fighters in the history of all combat sports.

I think Tamura was much more than "pretty good." But that's another conversation. Doing the things he did in his prime, especially at his size, was incredibly rare.

 

[dmwalking]

Ken Shamrock had some killers coming out of there for a second idk why he isn’t still training fighters, with how rigorous his training was I think he’d still be producing top talent.

roid rage and pro wrestling.

 

[moreorless87]

I disagree. Ken went 1-2 in pride after coming back from being a mid carder in the WWF and then got his ass kicked by Tito, who promoted the hell out of the event beforehand by smashing all of Kens lions den crew. Tito was the guy keeping the ufc afloat with his antics and everyone wanted to see him lose.

Really I think it was a bit of both, Ken was a known name from the WWE and Tito was hyped up a lot but hadnt been in a really big fight for awhile so facing Ken peaked his hype.

Form wise I think people maybe underestimate Ken after he came back, you watch the Pride fights really he does not look bad at all, beats the shit out of Fujita to the degree he gassed himself and has essentially a draw with Frye. Really though I think that fight was the end of both men as elite fighters, both were probably towards the end of their physical primes and a brutal match with nasty leg lock injuries ended there best years. Ken's knees were messed up against Tito and he took years off afterwards.

The interesting "what if" I spose is what if Ken stayed in MMA a little longer and headed to Pride in 97/98? really like Frye I think it was understandable he jumped to pro wrestling simply because MMA didnt have the earnings potential but quite shortly afterwards it did.