Why are wrestlers transitioning superior than Jiujitsu practioners at control on the ground?

[User89]

Is it the superior athlete syndrome? Wrestlers who transition to BJJ tend to be a handfull after a very short time and better at controlling limbs.

Given that they hail from very trivial rule-sets on the ground compared to BJJ, why do they have still have an edge in it when it comes to control (especially in a mount)?

 

[yetanother]

Folk style has complex ground work.

 

[RemyR]

Wrestling has escape points. BJJ only has points for a sweep. Something I’ve long thought was odd. If a guy manages to stand up from bottom side control, they should get some points for escaping a bad position.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

Wrestling has escape points. BJJ only has points for a sweep. Something I’ve long thought was odd. If a guy manages to stand up from bottom side control, they should get some points for escaping a bad position.

why should they be awarded for escaping side control? To have been put there in a bad spot, then escaping is reward enough. If they stay in side, they have no offense or submissions. Shouldn't award an escape from there

 

[User89]

Wrestling has escape points. BJJ only has points for a sweep. Something I’ve long thought was odd. If a guy manages to stand up from bottom side control, they should get some points for escaping a bad position.

Why would that make wrestlers superior at controlling? Shouldn't non-stop attempt to sub make you equally good at controlling limbs?

 

[User89]

Folk style has complex ground work.

All wrestlers of any background have an edge once they learn both, even though their old rule sets might be largely irrelevant or even counterproductive (like turning your back)

 

[yetanother]

Why would that make wrestlers superior at controlling? Shouldn't non-stop attempt to sub make you equally good at controlling limbs?

They aren't inherently better than elite bjj competitors. Wrestling is a real sport while bjj is often a hobby for fairly lazy people training in a stupid manner.

 

[User89]

They aren't inherently better than elite bjj competitors. Wrestling is a real sport while bjj is often a hobby for fairly lazy people training in a stupid manner.

And that’s after a week

 

[User89]

It makes no sense to me since there is nothing in newaza that requires cross training in wrestling. Wrestling is for the takedowns

 

[Xuh]

It makes no sense to me since there is nothing in newaza that requires cross training in wrestling. Wrestling is for the takedowns

Wrestling is about putting your opponent's back on the mat and holding them there long enough for the ref to call a pin, takedowns are just a step towards getting there.

 

[User89]

Wrestling is about putting your opponent's back on the mat and holding them there long enough for the ref to call a pin, takedowns are just a step towards getting there.

Yeah and being on your back is kinda where BJJ starts so it's irrrelevant. And turning your back like they do in wrestling is the worst thing you can do in Newaza

 

[Ryo]

I think alot of it comes down to the difference in Athleticism. Most wrestlers who go into MMA are super athletic freaks who are taught absolute aggression and smash. They are also used to training in the most efficient manner, which includes alot of strength and conditioning. Not so in Jiu-Jitsu for the most part.

 

[RemyR]

Why would that make wrestlers superior at controlling? Shouldn't non-stop attempt to sub make you equally good at controlling limbs?

Well the goal of wrestling is to control your opponent, hence the opponent getting points if you do a shitty job at it. And in general going for subs loosens your control a bit compared to just focusing on holding the guy down.

why should they be awarded for escaping side control? To have been put there in a bad spot, then escaping is reward enough. If they stay in side, they have no offense or submissions. Shouldn't award an escape from there

I mean, if you want to look at it that way a sweep should be it’s own reward too then. Yeah you can sub from the bottom but let’s be honest in a fight with strikes top>bottom and the point system was made to simulate improving position in a fight.

They aren't inherently better than elite bjj competitors. Wrestling is a real sport while bjj is often a hobby for fairly lazy people training in a stupid manner.

that’s kind of half true. As a wrestler and BJJ brown belt myself I tend to look at it this way: every single guy that steps on the wrestling mat is a serious competitor and competes several times a month. Trains at the very least 5 times a week. Looking at your BJJ academy what % of people there can you say do the same? Probably pretty small in comparison. And pushing yourself like this is really best way to improve.


as a side note I don’t necessarily believe that wrestlers are that much better at holding people down, rather they are much better at escaping being held down in bad spots.

 

[User89]

as a side note I don’t necessarily believe that wrestlers are that much better at holding people down, rather they are much better at escaping being held down in bad spots.

Why is that? The defense they learn in wrestling doesn't apply

 

[User89]

And in general going for subs loosens your control a bit compared to just focusing on holding the guy down.

It thought the hole point of Jiujitsu was to do both at the same time, or else he escapes

 

[kintana]

I am not sure if this is true for just wrestlers. I was in Fight Sports Miami where I went against a white belt who was an ex division 1 defensive end and he was very difficult to control. Not impossible though because I got there. Because athletes are better than your average joe who does this as a hobby.

So here is my take on it. A wrestler who had wrestled their whole life is probably a better athlete than the average BJJ practitioner. I never wrestled but if they went through the high school system and made it to the college system. They are probably pretty skilled and a better athlete than someone who did not do combat sports from the first half of their life.

You would be surprised how far great athletics prowess can take you. So now you take that person and teach them a sport that is not too different from their combat sport from a practical point of view. The purpose of both sports is to take the opponent to the ground and dominate. BJJ does it differently because submission is more important and giving up your bottom is not a big deal. Wrestling is more about controlling your opponent on the ground and pinning them.

A wrestler has probably 10+ years of combat sports experience before they enter BJJ. The average BJJ guy is probably a hobbyist. The wrestler has lots of competition experience probably more in 2 years than a BJJ guy in 5 years. The wrestler has suffered grueling practices and weight cuts. And the average BJJ class is not that tough. So it is that unexpected to believe that a competitive athlete can be better than the average person doing BJJ? Especially when some ofmost important aspects of jiu-jitsu is taking your opponent to the ground and control. A wrestler has a lot of experience doing that.

So that is why they have an easier transition. I mean look at Nicky Rod got an ADCC silver medal primarily using his wrestling. Why because taking your opponent down and controlling them is important in grappling. And if we take belts out the equation you wouldn't call Nicky Rod a beginner in the grappling arts. He may have been a beginner in BJJ at the time but not a beginner in grappling arts.

 

[User89]

I am not sure if this is true for just wrestlers. I was in Fight Sports Miami where I went against a white belt who was an ex division 1 defensive ene and he was very difficult to control. Not impossible though because I got there. Because athletes are better than your average joe who does this as a hobby.

So here is my take on it. A wrestler who had wrestled their whole life is probably a better athlete than the average BJJ practitioner. I never wrestled but if they went through the high school system and made it to the college system. They are probably pretty skilled and a better athlete than someone who did not do combat sports from the first half of their life.

You would be surprised how far great athletics prowess can take you. So now you take that person and teach them a sport that is not too different from their combat sport from a practical point of view. The purpose of both sports is to take the opponent to the ground and dominate. BJJ does it differently because submission is more important and giving up your bottom is not a big deal. Wrestling is more about controlling your opponent on the ground and pinning them.

A wrestler has probably 10+ years of combat sports experience before they enter BJJ. The average BJJ guy is probably a hobbyist. The wrestler has lots of competition experience probably more in 2 years than a BJJ guy in 5 years. The wrestler has suffered grueling practices and weight cuts. And the average BJJ class is not that tough. So it is that unexpected to believe that a competitive athlete can be better than the average person doing BJJ? Especially when some ofmost important aspects of jiu-jitsu is taking your opponent to the ground and control. A wrestler has a lot of experience doing that.

So that is why they have an easier transition. I mean look at Nicky Rod got an ADCC silver medal primarily using his wrestling. Why because taking your opponent down and controlling them is important in grappling. And if we take belts out the equation you wouldn't call Nicky Rod a beginner in the grappling arts. He may have been a beginner in BJJ at the time but not a beginner in grappling arts.

That's what I suspect too. It's due to their strength advantage, and in this case it also involved grappling so that makes it even harder because their muscles are used to it. So it has more to do with that than the specific content of wrestling

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

position before submission right? wrestlers basically only train position, so maybe that's why they're better at control

 

[RemyR]

Why is that? The defense they learn in wrestling doesn't apply

it does though. Wrestling kind of imbeds it into your head that being on your back is bad and potentially match ending, hence them fighting like hell to escape.

It thought the hole point of Jiujitsu was to do both at the same time, or else he escapes

You trolling or just don’t grapple?

Look if you got a guy great in BJJ on top of someone they’re going to open them up and not leave much openings. That being said, it’s not that hard to figure out that just focusing on holding someone there tends to give better control vs holding him there and doing other things.

 

[User89]

it does though. Wrestling kind of imbeds it into your head that being on your back is bad and potentially match ending, hence them fighting like hell to escape.

And how does that translate to jijutsu when a lost position in wrestling translates to a guard in BJJ- a perfectly viable spot to try and win from