Who's your NBA MVP? ***UPDATE: Poll Added***

[Michaelangelo]

Damn Harry Potter books in here

 

[The One True]

lol @ arguing advanced stats with faust on a friday night. literally kill me

 

[kuromusha]

Do me a favor my dude and link these series when GROAT carried Shaq, or at least just tell me the year and round so I know what you're talking about

Matt Geiger was 2001 DPOY Dikembe Mutombo's backup in the 2001 Finals. Shaq besmirched the DPOY for 33-16-5 on 57% shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_finals.html




Why are we still comparing Kooby to Jordan?

Miguel career reg season: 30.1 ppg - 27.9 PER - .250 WS/48 - 118 ORtg
Kooby career reg season: 25.4 ppg - 23.2 PER - .178 WS/48 - 111 ORtg

Miguel career playoffs: 33.4 ppg - 28.6 PER - .255 WS/48 - 118 ORtg
Kooby career playoffs: 25.6 ppg - 22.4 PER - .157 WS/48 - 110 ORtg

lol Snaq only did so well against Mutombo because the refs allowed Snaq to basically assault him on the court. I still remember those brutal elbows Oatmeal was landing on Dikembe.

Snaq had four (FOUR!) offensive fouls in one game. lmao

 

[faustian]

hakeem has some of the best dws numbers all-time, and had a significantly higher dws than clyde in those playoffs. in order for clyde's ws to be greater, he'd have to be doing something disproportionately well on the other end to bridge the gap. it might make sense if hakeem was only a defensive specialist but he was clearly their most important and productive offensive player

Again I don't have bbal-ref in front of me right now but I guarantee both Hakeem's WS and DWS were down from the previous postseason when he had to face only one prime HOF center. Not only is going against Shaq/Robinson gonna hurt your DWS, but it eventually takes a toll on offensive efficiency. Particularly in the Finals vs the Shaq/Ho doubles, Hakeem's fg% dropped but it was a high pace series so his FGA and usage went up as Houston's entire offense revolved around him attacking. Drexler played a great all-around game that postseason and was very efficient playing off Hakeem, Drexler would also take over brief but important stretches of games with his one-man fast breaks that would either turn the tide of the game or blow it open. That said, Drexler finishing with a slightly higher WS is the kind of fluke anomaly produced by tiny sample sizes.

lol. hakeem was better in every single statistical category that season with the slight exception of to's. robinson had the better team which contributed to his 'advanced stats' being superior, especially in the case of ws's which dream is strangely absent from the top 10. there weren't ten better players than him that season, if any

Robinson had the better reg season and even outplayed Hakeem h2h. Olajuwon missed some games that season and I remember he had a particularly rough Ramadan fasting that year. Their boxscore #s were pretty identical but I guarantee Robinson was significantly more efficient. Yes, Robinson leading his meh team to 60+ wins is more impressive than Hakeem leading the defending champions to 47 wins, and yes, it is taken to consideration just as it ought to be.

that's silly. give jordan two of the prime years he missed, he sits today with the most missed fg's of all time, but not the most points to show for it. if kaj had missed the most fg's of all time as a c shooting 56%, that would be pretty weird. you can obfuscate the fact all you want, but for the 3rd leading scorer all time to have the most missed fg's - factoring for position as a 2 guard compared to the bigs ahead of him, and for scoring responsibility - is completely normal

2 extra prime years puts Jordan at the doorstep of most points, it also likely gives him the most FGA all-time. Makes sense that the guy with the most attempts would also have the most misses. His shooting volume is acceptable because two additional prime seasons likely bump Jordan's career efficiency to top 5 all-time among volume scorers

if he had shot less playing alongside shaq as you advised, there's no way they would have three-peated. true being a high volume scoring superstar whose game wasn't predicated on off-ball looks from shaq is what made them the most dynamic 1-2 punch the game has seen. for true to be a more reserved role player to shaq's batman would have meant more shaq/penny/anderson playoff outcomes - iow, not a threepeat

You can spread the floor and have a 1-2 attack without constantly forcing horrendous ill-advised shots from every which angle. They 3peated despite Kooby shooting horrendously in the yoffs most of the time, there's no doubt no doubt in my mind that you only make the team stronger by giving those forced low% chucks to Shaq inside instead, at least during the first 3 quarters of games. Not only do you 3peat, but you 4peat.


We can continue this discussion tomorrow when I can fire up bball-ref, although I'm bored of it and most experts agree I've already made it an OPEN AND SHUT CASE

 

[Scuba]

Westbrook
a man on a mission

 

[The One True]

Again I don't have bbal-ref in front of me right now but I guarantee both Hakeem's WS and DWS were down from the previous postseason when he only had to face only one prime HOF center. Not only is going against Shaq/Robinson gonna hurt your DWS, but it eventually takes a toll on offensive efficiency. Particularly in the Finals vs the Shaq/Ho doubles, Hakeem's fg% dropped but it was a high pace series so his FGA and usage went up as Houston's entire offense revolved around him attacking. Drexler played a great all-around game that postseason and was very efficient playing off Hakeem, Drexler would also take over brief but important stretches of games with his one-man fast breaks that would either turn the tide of the game or blow it open. That said, Drexler finishing with a slightly higher WS is the kind of fluke anomaly produced by tiny sample sizes.

should preface this by saying, this goes against your earlier summation of drexler that post season as an over the hill player who was essentially carried. your description above is a far cry from that. hakeem's ows dipped more than his dws from 94 to 95, and in regards to drexler, hakeem averaged much more points at a better clip for the yoffs. my point remains though: the essence of what the stat attempts to quantify - how much did an individual contribute to a team's wins - is completely being missed here. if hakeem didn't finish top 10 in 95, or if clyde finished with more ws in the yoffs, too much value is being given to a smaller role being done efficiently, or a nuance like some over/ underemphasized stat is swaying it erratically, i don't know. hence why there are so many anomalies every season, even over large sample sizes

my gripe is how many arbitrary coefficients the formulas have, how much emphasis they put on steals/blocks/drbds in determining individual defensive ability (even though these stats are oftentimes bolstered at the expense of team defense), how they make ridiculous sweeping assumptions in order to gloss over unrecorded stats like assuming every player spends an equal amount of time as the primary defender, and completely ignores the most fundamental components such as actually staying in front of your man or ball denial or forcing passes, etc. all of these player ratings rely so heavily on team ratings that you can't just draw conclusions about a player on that basis alone. tony allen had more dws's in 08 than the previous two seasons combined, because 08 he played for a historically good defensive team, and the two seasons prior, the team sucked. nothing about his game changed enough to justify that sort of boost in the numbers

Robinson had the better reg season and even outplayed Hakeem h2h. Olajuwon missed some games that season and I remember he had a particularly rough Ramadan fasting that year. Their boxscore #s were pretty identical but I guarantee Robinson was significantly more efficient. Yes, Robinson leading his meh team to 60+ wins is more impressive than Hakeem leading the defending champions to 47 wins, and yes, it is taken to consideration just as it ought to be.

statistically, robinson did not have a better regular season - hakeem did. whether robinson outplayed hakeem h2h on a few occasions throughout the course of the season has hardly any bearing on their cumulative win share stats. i'm not arguing hakeem to be that season's mvp, that award for better or worse is usually reserved for the top team's best player. i'm saying that hakeem had greater counting stats and did it more efficiently according to the boxscore, although robinson's superior team played a major contributing factor in the significant gap they had in ws

2 extra prime years puts Jordan at the doorstep of most points, it also likely gives him the most FGA all-time. Makes sense that the guy with the most attempts would also have the most misses. His shooting volume is acceptable because two additional prime seasons likely bump Jordan's career efficiency to top 5 all-time among volume scorers

he still wouldn't have the most points all time, and would probably be second in fga based on the stats trend of those lost seasons. in that scenario, nobody would knock jordan's career for having missed the most shots despite not having the most points. but tbh it's a dumb argument altogether borne out of your trolling sidetrack

You can spread the floor and have a 1-2 attack without constantly forcing horrendous ill-advised shots from every which angle. They 3peated despite Kooby shooting horrendously in the yoffs most of the time, there's no doubt no doubt in my mind that you only make the team stronger by giving those forced low% chucks to Shaq inside instead, at least during the first 3 quarters of games. Not only do you 3peat, but you 4peat.

you obviously didn't watch them play. nobody watching those games saw true 'constantly forcing horrendous ill-advised shots from every which angle', that is historical revision. they saw him as the perfect elite perimeter player to compliment the perfect inside player. if true was chucking the likes of which you describe, they wouldn't have won anything. the lack of a 4peat has various explanations, one of which was a very clear regression in shaq's game, primarily caused by what medical experts call 'becoming a fat tub of lard'. 03 & 04 lakes were way too top heavy, too many old players, off-court disputes which hurt chemistry, plus they couldn't defend at all

 

[faustian]

Kaderp my dude I think you must have me confused with another poster. I've never said the '95 Rockets were a horrible supporting cast for Hakeem and I would never besmirch Drexler (he's my favorite player of all time ffs)

I'll read the rest tomorrow

 

[The One True]

Kaderp my dude I think you must have me confused with another poster. I've never said the '95 Rockets were a horrible supporting cast for Hakeem and I would never besmirch Drexler (he's my favorite player of all time ffs)

I'll read the rest tomorrow

maybe. you've used the word 'carried' quite liberally -

Hakeem carried his team to the Finals 3 different times and won 2 FMVPs

Hakeem played with Sampson for his first 2.5 seasons in the NBA and has a Finals appearance to show for it

He then spent over half a decade playing with cans before a past-prime 32 yo Drexler joined him midway through the 95 season (Hakeem was also 32). Rockets proceeded to win the 95 NBA ship

Ewing always had a solid supporting cast, especially compared to Olajuwon. I'll take guys like Mark Jackson, Charles Oakley, Xavier McDaniel, Anthony Mason, John Starks, Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper, Charles Smith, etc over the stuff Hakeem was working with in the late 80s/early 90s. Plus Ewing had Pat Riley whereas the Rockets were a mess of a franchise prior to being sold in 93. It robbed Olajuwon of his prime years, many people don't realize that Hakeem was already 30 years old when he carried the Rockets to the 94 Finals.

-

which is in stark contrast to

Drexler played a great all-around game that postseason and was very efficient playing off Hakeem, Drexler would also take over brief but important stretches of games with his one-man fast breaks that would either turn the tide of the game or blow it open.

 

[The One True]

btw don't know if i'll ever be in the mood to write this much again so i'll probably skim over whatever novel you post tomorrow and hit you with a did not read gif lol. i do understand the points you're trying to make, it really just boils down to how much credence we lend to advanced stats. i honestly put little stock in most of them, you tend to think they accurately portray production/value/talent, das cool mane

 

[jrams]

Hasheem winning in 94 doesn't have much to do with the 95 playoffs.

Faust will always talk bad about Hasheem's and Carl Barkley's teammates in an attempt to prop them up.


Kobe was pretty irrelevant to the Lakers first title. He had an ankle injury and missed two of the games in the finals which did nothing to slow down Snaq. Indiana had no answer for Snaq.

And Kobe was the reason they lost with the super friends against DWS superstar Billups. Pistons knew their only chance was to get Kobe to play hero ball, which he won one game with so fell right into playing it for the rest of the games. That was the worst playoff series Kobe played outside of him quitting on his team against Phoenix (which he played great in until that point).

 

[Revolver]

Cliffs please

 

[RR]

Cliffs would require some reading all these screen plays and i doubt that happened. Faust passed out writing his last response

 

[420SherCat]

2Nd seed in the tough west.

 

[wlu29]

2Nd seed in the tough west.

So Trevor ariza it is

 

[RR]

And Houston is the 2 seed in the West. Put a beard on the MVP trophy and sent it to the free throw line

 

[Revolver]

Clips finna take the 2 seed

 

[RR]

Who do you guys finish with? Houston has an ugly 5 game stretch still left

 

[Revolver]

Nothing but cans

 

[RR]

You have a chance then.

Heard Aldridge is getting weekly cortizone injections

 

[Possum Jenkins]

This is what James Harden looks like without the manufactured FTs:



It's no mystery how to defend him: simply don't foul him and just allow him to chuck away. He doesn't have a godly first step, he's just really good at changing directions once he gets his defender backpedaling. To avoid that, simply sag off him to close easy driving lanes and always go under when he uses a screener. Think of how the Spurs defended LeBeta by forcing him to make outside shots (difference btw LeBrick and Harden is LeBitch can simply go post up and bully inside which forces the opposing D to have to collapse on him with double & triple teams down low).

More film of Harden's unstoppable offensive game (note all the missed layups when he's not getting bailed out with calls):

Oh snap, Hardgoat's been figured out. Since it's so easy to guard him, he and his team will surely be tanking.

Let me check: still neck-and-neck with Westbrook for the scoring title, Rockets with the 3rd-best record in NBA despite being without Howard for like 2 months.

Keep trying, fellas.