Who's your NBA MVP? ***UPDATE: Poll Added***

[The One True]

Well Jordan hasn't played 19 seasons like GROAT, yet Jordan has still managed to make more shots in his career than GROAT

Kooby is 1st all-time in missed shots, yet he isn't even top 5 in made shots

Beyond that, legit all-time greats like Jordan didn't get their volume scoring at the expense of their team

lmao @ this d-level analysis. true has hit 1,694 career 3's compared to jordan's 581. he has also sunk 8,146 ft's to jordan's 7,327. hence why he has been able to score more career points without making as many FG's

'expense of their team' = 5 rings/5 fmvp LMAO!!

 

[faustian]

how so? '95 is the post season which you yourself said (itt) that hakeem put a shitty team lacking any all-stars on his back and carried them to a ship. why shouldn't the WS's thoroughly reflect the reality which you garnered through actually watching the games live? over the course of 22 games, dream accordingly should have ran away with that stat. that is just one example of many where AS's portray a completely distorted perspective contrary to what everybody intuitively knows through watching

the thing with you and stats is, you're impulsively in favor of them when they support a preconceived notion or bias, but ignore or explain them away through 'context' when they don't. ws is a silly stat, putting the reasons i listed aside, what is the objective? to calculate how much a player contributes to games in which a particular team wins? speaking of winning, the one true has won 5 ships and has been the most important player for a majority of those series. btw not sure why you are so adamant on harden not being mvp when he is currently leading the league in your own stat

Hakeem was matched up against Shaquille O'neal and David Robinson for half of the 95 playoffs. That is why his 95 playoff Win Shares are distorted.

 

[Breakitdown]

LMAO @ even comparing WS/48 to rings. Imagine asking a player at the start of their career the following "you can either end your career with 5 rings and be remembered forever or a nice WS/48 resume and you get white knighted by hollinger acolytes" LMAO. They would laugh in your face LOL!

 

[Revolver]

Faust, i get what you're saying, but he's a pretty decent 3pt shooter, if you sag him too much constantly, he'll just chuck more 3s presumably. but yes, you described how to guard him pretty well, but in reality it's very rarely done. all the clips in the world don't negate the numbers he's putting up this year.

i noticed nobody tries to argue the effectiveness of his passing this year, i.e. leading the league in assited 3s. again, in today's game, that's kinda a big deal. the only reason i'm even arguing him is that team has nobody and they're in decent standing.

westbrook deserves it, but they're struggling. bern has kyrie playing great lately. steph has klay playing great all year. so on and so forth. Davis is a beast, but same shit as westbrook.

im telling you right now, harden will get the mvp. whether he deserves it or not, he's more effective overall than nash was, with even less of a supporting cast. and he plays more D than nash.

lol, Bern has a guy who's never made the playoffs before and who's team was 0-10 without him this year. Cans would be on pace for 70 wins if he hadn't missed those games.

 

[The One True]

Hakeem was matched up against Shaquille O'neal and David Robinson for half of the 95 playoffs. That is why his 95 playoff Win Shares are distorted.

lol. if the validity of a stat can be distorted or corrupted through variables such as strength of opposition, which always has been and always will be a very real factor, then how can you put so much stock into it? the 95 yoffs weren't the first time a player had a couple tough matchups. why not lend this sort of context to other players instead of just the ones you personally like? your explanation for the stat's shortcoming in this instance points to its greater fundamental flaw in that it doesn't take into account many variables that simply can't be non-arbitrarily quantified. this reiterates my point on your approach to interpreting/using stats, it's either simply flawed or disingenuous my dude

 

[R.I.P. KMS]

Tyler Hansborourgh.

 

[faustian]

Fallacious comparison. Look no further than the dominance of true vs the real contenders of the day (kings, spurs) and see how Snaq's fat ass got CARRIED to multiple titles by the single greatest player in the history of sports LMAO!!!

The One True was decimating Duncan, Webber, Bibby, etc while Snaq ran over the Matt Geiger's of the world in the finals LMAO! The C on my rec league team could drop 40 and 25 on Matt fucking Geiger LOL!

Do me a favor my dude and link these series when GROAT carried Shaq, or at least just tell me the year and round so I know what you're talking about

Matt Geiger was 2001 DPOY Dikembe Mutombo's backup in the 2001 Finals. Shaq besmirched the DPOY for 33-16-5 on 57% shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_finals.html

lmao @ this d-level analysis. true has hit 1,694 career 3's compared to jordan's 581. he has also sunk 8,146 ft's to jordan's 7,327. hence why he has been able to score more career points without making as many FG's

'expense of their team' = 5 rings/5 fmvp LMAO!!

Why are we still comparing Kooby to Jordan?

Miguel career reg season: 30.1 ppg - 27.9 PER - .250 WS/48 - 118 ORtg
Kooby career reg season: 25.4 ppg - 23.2 PER - .178 WS/48 - 111 ORtg

Miguel career playoffs: 33.4 ppg - 28.6 PER - .255 WS/48 - 118 ORtg
Kooby career playoffs: 25.6 ppg - 22.4 PER - .157 WS/48 - 110 ORtg

 

[The One True]

that is a very strong and very relevant counter to the argument i was making. thank you

 

[jrams]

that is a very strong and very relevant counter to the argument i was making. thank you

 

[faustian]

lol. if the validity of a stat can be distorted or corrupted through variables such as strength of opposition, which always has been and always will be a very real factor, then how can you put so much stock into it? the 95 yoffs weren't the first time a player had a couple tough matchups. why not lend this sort of context to other players instead of just the ones you personally like? your explanation for the stat's shortcoming in this instance points to its greater fundamental flaw in that it doesn't take into account many variables that simply can't be non-arbitrarily quantified. this reiterates my point on your approach to interpreting/using stats, it's either simply flawed or disingenuous my dude

That's how sample sizes work

1995 PS: Hakeem plays vs Shaq/Robinson in 10 of 22 games
1995 RS: Hakeem plays vs Shaq/Robinson in 8 of 72 games

I don't put much stock into a stat like WS for single postseasons because of the sample size, I don't for Hakeem and I don't for any player. I'll cite a player's career postseason WS, but you can't find me citing a single postseason WS for any player

 

[faustian]

that is a very strong and very relevant counter to the argument i was making. thank you

You brought up Jordan leading the league in missed FGs 7 times to rationalize why Kooby leading NBA history in missed FGs is acceptable. Kooby led the NBA in scoring twice in his career, Jordan did it ten times. Jordan is a significantly higher volume scorer, so Jordan missing 10.6 shots/gm does not have the same negative impact as Kooby missing 10.8 shots/gm

 

[jrams]

Do me a favor my dude and link these series when GROAT carried Shaq, or at least just tell me the year and round so I know what you're talking about

Matt Geiger was 2001 DPOY Dikembe Mutombo's backup in the 2001 Finals. Shaq besmirched the DPOY for 33-16-5 on 57% shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_finals.html

Mutombo was the man. Took some crazy elbows from Shaq and kept playing defense.

 

[The One True]

That's how sample sizes work

1995 PS: Hakeem plays vs Shaq/Robinson in 10 of 22 games
1995 RS: Hakeem plays vs Shaq/Robinson in 8 of 72 games

I don't put much stock into a stat like WS for single postseasons because of the sample size, I don't for Hakeem and I don't for any player. I'll cite a player's career postseason WS, but you can't find me citing a single postseason WS for any player

this might make sense if hakeem's numbers struggled against those two, hence being a detriment to his ws calculation. but you've posted his absolutely dominant numbers in those series already itt, so what exactly is causing drexler to have the greater ws? sample size would be a good argument if he had a tough series against them, but he destroyed them as you've argued, surpassing his regular season averages

also, robinson led the league in ws in 95, hakeem wasn't even top 10 lmao. the same year many felt dream was robbed of another mvp. does this mean robinson was the -significantly- better player that year as their ws suggests? the way you personally use ws to directly compare players and argue the case for one being better than the other leads me to believe you consider it as a legitimate measuring stick in terms of ability/value in a player, even though season after season it goes directly in the face of what we've all watched and surmised ourselves

You brought up Jordan leading the league in missed FGs 7 times to rationalize why Kooby leading NBA history in missed FGs is acceptable. Kooby led the NBA in scoring twice in his career, Jordan did it ten times. Jordan is a significantly higher volume scorer, so Jordan missing 10.6 shots/gm does not have the same negative impact as Kooby missing 10.8 shots/gm

you brought up true's missed fg's stat to begin with for no reason other than to perhaps detract from the list of accomplishments bd posted, even though yours had no direct relevancy. i put your tangent talking point into perspective by saying the guy you consider to be the goat led the league in missed fg's 7 times, and was probably on pace to be the all-time leader had he played a similar number of minutes. the point was to demonstrate why missed fg's as an individual stat means absolutely nothing - surprise surprise, the best players have missed the most shots

but lol @ having to rationalize it - who could 'acceptably' have the most missed fg's then? true is the third leading scorer in nba history, the two guys ahead of him had historical health/longevity and were pf/c's, so naturally they shot at a higher clip. a 19th season number one option guard and 3rd all time points leader having the most missed fg's is completely fair and a natural consequence of minutes x usage

 

[Michaelangelo]

Analshitics is getting destroyed in here. I may have to find a new way to draft fantasy teams.

 

[faustian]

this might make sense if hakeem's numbers struggled against those two, hence being a detriment to his ws calculation. but you've posted his absolutely dominant numbers in those series already itt, so what exactly is causing drexler to have the greater ws? sample size would be a good argument if he had a tough series against them, but he destroyed them as you've argued, surpassing his regular season averages

because Win Shares = Offensive Win Shares + Defensive Win Shares

The more points you individually allow the lower your DWS and WS are gonna be

Hakeem played 10 of 22 playoff games vs centers who were scoring close to 30 ppg that season

also, robinson led the league in ws in 95, hakeem wasn't even top 10 lmao. the same year many felt dream was robbed of another mvp. does this mean robinson was the -significantly- better player that year as their ws suggests? the way you personally use ws to directly compare players and argue the case for one being better than the other leads me to believe you consider it as a legitimate measuring stick in terms of ability/value in a player, even though season after season it goes directly in the face of what we've all watched and surmised ourselves

Robinson was the better player that reg season, that's why he won MVP. Robinson was one of the best reg season players ever, but he often had a harder time in the playoffs

When I directly compare players I consider both their entire careers and their primes, I also weigh career/prime playoff performance pretty heavily. The advanced stats usually confirm my eye test

you brought up true's missed fg's stat to begin with for no reason other than to perhaps detract from the list of accomplishments bd posted, even though yours had no direct relevancy. i put your tangent talking point into perspective by saying the guy you consider to be the goat led the league in missed fg's 7 times, and was probably on pace to be the all-time leader had he played a similar number of minutes. the point was to demonstrate why missed fg's as an individual stat means absolutely nothing - surprise surprise, the best players have missed the most shots

but lol @ having to rationalize it - who could 'acceptably' have the most missed fg's then? true is the third leading scorer in nba history, the two guys ahead of him had historical health/longevity and were pf/c's, so naturally they shot at a higher clip. a 19th season number one option guard and 3rd all time points leader having the most missed fg's is completely fair and a natural consequence of minutes x usage

It's a very relevant fact, it speaks to Kooby's notoriously bad shot selection and lends support to the eye test observation that he could sometimes be a ball stopper who shot too much at the expense of team offense.

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but iirc of the 19 players in NBA history to score 25,000 points, Kooby is 1st in missed FGs and 10th in TS%. I believe he's 3rd in FGA, so he takes more shots than a bunch of guys who are more efficient volume scorers than he is. The obvious conclusion to be drawn here is that he should've shot less (especially considering he played nearly half his career with the third most efficient volume scorer in NBA history)

Who could acceptably have the most missed FGs? I nominate whoever has the most points or FGA, and the higher their efficiency the more acceptable their missed FGs. Kareem has the most points and FGA and he's the second most efficient volume scorer of all time. So Kareem would be very acceptable.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

all you have to do is look at Kobe's 3pt % and attempts per game..... that tells you what you need to know about his horrible shot selection. he's actually much better converting those so called 'horrible' contested midrange shots (in fact is one of the greatest guards ever at that), ableit they have one less expected ppa

then you have someone like Wade, an even worse 3pt shooter, but he smartly then didn't take many......instead he chose to spam attempts from where he was by far most efficient (0-3 ft). i think kobe is substantially more talented than wade (prime or whole career), but it's wades shot selection that makes it so close in the first place. so i can see the argument by faust or others that wade had the better peak.

bball iq (and a subset of that, shot selection) are kinda a big deal, just sayin

 

[faustian]

Trudat

 

[The One True]

because Win Shares = Offensive Win Shares + Defensive Win Shares

The more points you individually allow the lower your DWS and WS are gonna be

Hakeem played 10 of 22 playoff games vs centers who were scoring close to 30 ppg that season

hakeem has some of the best dws numbers all-time, and had a significantly higher dws than clyde in those playoffs. in order for clyde's ws to be greater, he'd have to be doing something disproportionately well on the other end to bridge the gap. it might make sense if hakeem was only a defensive specialist but he was clearly their most important and productive offensive player

Robinson was the better player that reg season, that's why he won MVP. Robinson was one of the best reg season players ever, but he often had a harder time in the playoffs

lol. hakeem was better in every single statistical category that season with the slight exception of to's. robinson had the better team which contributed to his 'advanced stats' being superior, especially in the case of ws's which dream is strangely absent from the top 10. there weren't ten better players than him that season, if any

It's a very relevant fact, it speaks to Kooby's notoriously bad shot selection and lends support to the eye test observation that he could sometimes be a ball stopper who shot too much at the expense of team offense.

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but iirc of the 19 players in NBA history to score 25,000 points, Kooby is 1st in missed FGs and 10th in TS%. I believe he's 3rd in FGA, so he takes more shots than a bunch of guys who are more efficient volume scorers than he is. The obvious conclusion to be drawn here is that he should've shot less (especially considering he played nearly half his career with the third most efficient volume scorer in NBA history)

Who could acceptably have the most missed FGs? I nominate whoever has the most points or FGA, and the higher their efficiency the more acceptable their missed FGs. Kareem has the most points and FGA and he's the second most efficient volume scorer of all time. So Kareem would be very acceptable.

that's silly. give jordan two of the prime years he missed, he sits today with the most missed fg's of all time, but not the most points to show for it. if kaj had missed the most fg's of all time as a c shooting 56%, that would be pretty weird. you can obfuscate the fact all you want, but for the 3rd leading scorer all time to have the most missed fg's - factoring for position as a 2 guard compared to the bigs ahead of him, and for scoring responsibility - is completely normal

if he had shot less playing alongside shaq as you advised, there's no way they would have three-peated. true being a high volume scoring superstar whose game wasn't predicated on off-ball looks from shaq is what made them the most dynamic 1-2 punch the game has seen. for true to be a more reserved role player to shaq's batman would have meant more shaq/penny/anderson playoff outcomes - iow, not a threepeat

 

[Revolver]

Not reading any of these novels.

 

[The One True]

lmao. don't blame you man