Who would you pick to beat a prime Tyson?

[mozfonky]

@mozfonky for you sir.

He should be put in the ring with peak Tyson for that costume.

 

[Pierce 34]

Tucker for me is a much more talented fighter than Fury, if he had of been able to stay off the drugs i think he could have easily been the second best of that generation

Fury is dreadful, he wins an absolute stinker against Wlad then retires, then he fights a few schmucks and then Wilder and people seem to think of him as some sort of boxing god, ignoring he nearly got outboxed by a ZERO fight MMA fighter and should have lost to Wallin

He isnt beating Tyson in his prime ever, he brings people onto his uppercuts...he has landed about 5 in his career, one that knocked fat man Whyte out and he caught Usyk with 2 in 24 rounds

Who did mike beat in his prime? Old Homles, Spinx?

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

You explained earlier that comparing Tucker and Fury isn't good. Now you use it yourself lol

I could now apply reverse logic and say that Tucker was able to do that because he's smaller/lighter than Big Belly Fury.

Their size and level of boxing skill is different but stylistically they're both boxer-movers. What can Tucker do that Fury can't? We've seen Fury fit you know. Without the belly. That's the version we're using here. He's still a hell of a lot rangier and bigger than Tucker ever was in his prime.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I think some of you guys need to rewatch Mike in his prime. He struggled with big guys back then that would be considered small heavyweights today. BoneCrusher Smith threw almost nothing at all and still managed to frustrate Mike and go the distance. He stayed on his feet the entire fight as did Tucker (who took about 4 rounds off of Mike). Heading into the fight BoneCrusher had already lost a handful of fights and had been finished multiple times. James Broad only needed 4 rounds to stop him.

 

[defjaam]

James Broad only needed 4 rounds to stop him.

That was 400 years before the Tyson bout loI... In which Smith by the way was holding on for dear life. He was avoiding the danger zone and using grappling as much as possible.
Also James Broad isn't the type of opponent that one normally fights in the pro debut.

When you look at Tyson's program during those years, it's really not comparable to today. He fights James Tillis and two weeks later Mitch Green.
Fury beats Wladimir Klitschko and doesn't fight for three years at all.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

That was 400 years before the Tyson bout loI... In which Smith by the way was holding on for dear life. He was avoiding the danger zone and using grappling as much as possible.
Also James Broad isn't the type of opponent that one normally fights in the pro debut.

When you look at Tyson's program during those years, it's really not comparable to today. He fights James Tillis and two weeks later Mitch Green.
Fury beats Wladimir Klitschko and doesn't fight for three years at all.

I do believe that it was Bonecrusher Smith's pro debut against Broad but durability is durability. He may've been a debutant professional at that point but he wasn't old and he was hurt badly enough for the ref to stop it. Realistically, Mike's best win back then was Tony Tucker. That isn't saying much. It wasn't Holmes and it wasn't Spinks. Here's a nice breakdown of why that's the case. As for Mike, who did he first lose to a bit later on? Douglas. A much bigger guy that had 25 lbs on him and significant height & reach advantages. The pattern had already been established years prior when he struggled against the other bigger men even though he beat them. The writing was on the wall for it to happen. Mike himself once said that the Klitschkos were probably too big for him.

I'll say it again. I'd favor him over Fury but some of you guys are acting like it'd be a cakewalk. It wouldn't be. Not when you consider that Mike would be giving up a ridiculous 14 inches of reach, 9 inches in height, and 30 to 40 lbs in weight. Another thing is that Fury's never been stopped and he's been in there with big punchers before.

Edit. Douglas only had 11 lbs on Mike that night. For some reason Google told me 25 but that didn't sound right so I BoxRec'd it.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Additional context. When Bonecrusher was KO'd by Broad he was in fact making his pro debut but that's a moot point considering that Broad himself was a green 2-0 pro at the time.

 

[Pierce 34]

I do believe that it was Bonecrusher Smith's pro debut against Broad but durability is durability. He may've been a debutant professional at that point but he wasn't old and he was hurt badly enough for the ref to stop it. Realistically, Mike's best win back then was Tony Tucker. That isn't saying much. It wasn't Holmes and it wasn't Spinks. Here's a nice breakdown of why that's the case. As for Mike, who did he first lose to a bit later on? Douglas. A much bigger guy that had 25 lbs on him and significant height & reach advantages. The pattern had already been established years prior when he struggled against the other bigger men even though he beat them. The writing was on the wall for it to happen. Mike himself once said that the Klitschkos were probably too big for him.

I'll say it again. I'd favor him over Fury but some of you guys are acting like it'd be a cakewalk. It wouldn't be. Not when you consider that Mike would be giving up a ridiculous 14 inches of reach, 9 inches in height, and 30 to 40 lbs in weight. Another thing is that Fury's never been stopped and he's been in there with big punchers before.

Edit. Douglas only had 11 lbs on Mike that night. For some reason Google told me 25 but that didn't sound right so I BoxRec'd it.

Fury would just clinch Mike and make him carry his weight like a big boy

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Fury would just clinch Mike and make him carry his weight like a big boy

I mentioned it earlier. Not only would Fury tie up Mike whenever he got inside to prevent him from letting his hands go he would absolutely lean on him at every opportunity. Mike would need an answer for that tactic alone. You can watch any of Mike's fights and see that he accepted the clinch. It was easy to initiate against him. He rarely denied their attempts. Lewis also leaned on him and pushed his head down to drain him. Obviously Mike has impressive power but he'd need to bring Fury's head down a bit by going to the body first. Having to constantly punch 9 inches upwards to reach Fury's head would be quite challenging and it will significantly deplete his punching power. What we'd see is Mike whiffing on big shots worse than he did against Bonecrusher Smith.

 

[Pierce 34]

I mentioned it earlier. Not only would Fury tie up Mike whenever he got inside to prevent him from letting his hands go he would absolutely lean on him at every opportunity. Mike would need an answer for that tactic alone. You can watch any of Mike's fights and see that he accepted the clinch. It was easy to initiate against him. He rarely denied their attempts. Lewis also leaned on him and pushed his head down to drain him. Obviously Mike has impressive power but he'd need to bring Fury's head down a bit by going to the body first. Having to constantly punch 9 inches upwards to reach Fury's head would be quite challenging and it will significantly deplete his punching power. What we'd see is Mike whiffing on big shots worse than he did against Bonecrusher Smith.

Probably makes the clinch tactics easier for Fury if he doesn't have to worry about Tysons shots to Furys head

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Probably makes the clinch tactics easier for Fury if he doesn't have to worry about Tysons shots to Furys head

It would. Mike would have to target the body mainly. The guy has a shorter reach than Floyd Mayweather. That certainly won't do him any favors against freakishly big (legit super heavyweights) like Vitali & Fury.

 

[mozfonky]

Additional context. When Bonecrusher was KO'd by Broad he was in fact making his pro debut but that's a moot point considering that Broad himself was a green 2-0 pro at the time.

bonecrusher was always very limited, nice man, but all dude had was a huge right hand which, honestly, the heavyweight division has almost always had a few killer punchers laying in wait. Bonecrusher was actually the first man who staggered Tyson, problem was, he didn't do shit for the 12 rounds preceding that but he put him on queer street and Mike, to his credit, immediately fired back when he got his faculties. Crusher was huge, just amazing how big those dudes were and in such shape, what was he? 230? if that? hell, lots of us fat slobs who ain't even close to being heavyweights weigh that much in our daily lives. Be 5-9, 250. As far as Broad, he was a decorated Ammie, so, of course, the ammies and pros never were the same but that background has often been where our fighters learn their trade. He wasn't disciplined enough as a pro, had a pretty difficult disposition from what I read, also ended up with tons of brain damage, dying relatively young in the early 00's. But talented guy, beat Marvis Frazier in the ammies in a notable fight that could and should have ended Marvis' career, he hit him and paralyzed him by pinching a nerve, very serious. Marvis came back to beat him as a pro.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

bonecrusher was always very limited, nice man, but all dude had was a huge right hand which, honestly, the heavyweight division has almost always had a few killer punchers laying in wait. Bonecrusher was actually the first man who staggered Tyson, problem was, he didn't do shit for the 12 rounds preceding that but he put him on queer street and Mike, to his credit, immediately fired back when he got his faculties. Crusher was huge, just amazing how big those dudes were and in such shape, what was he? 230? if that? hell, lots of us fat slobs who ain't even close to being heavyweights weigh that much in our daily lives. Be 5-9, 250. As far as Broad, he was a decorated Ammie, so, of course, the ammies and pros never were the same but that background has often been where our fighters learn their trade. He wasn't disciplined enough as a pro, had a pretty difficult disposition from what I read, also ended up with tons of brain damage, dying relatively young in the early 00's. But talented guy, beat Marvis Frazier in the ammies in a notable fight that could and should have ended Marvis' career, he hit him and paralyzed him by pinching a nerve, very serious. Marvis came back to beat him as a pro.

Crusher definitely hurt Mike in there. I believe in the last round and maybe even before that. He just didn't throw nearly enough. I think it was only a couple hundred punches that he threw over the course of the fight. That's terrible. Tucker also hurt Mike in the first round with a well-timed uppercut. It almost dropped him. For whatever reason Mike just kept walking straight in and was getting caught. Like he couldn't be bothered trying to work his way inside behind the jab and bobbing & weaving to close distance.

 

[mozfonky]

As for Tyson, there was a lot to like about the guy, aside from all the mythos surrounding the catskill/cus/browsnville background, which was great. But, as a fighter, at his best he was sensational and beautiful to watch. Ali was beautiful but Tyson was beautiful in a different way, seeing all that bound up muscle move with such precision and skill, making the bigger guys miss and getting in to rip his man apart with combos that looked like they came from a 106 pounder. Holyfield once said that Mike did everything like a 106 pounder when he first met him in the olympic camp and it was true, jumped rope like a maniac, trained like a maniac, seemed to be as fast with his hands as prime Camacho and he had kayo power. The other great thing was, at least until the Douglas fight, when he was supposed to get a guy out of there, he did it. If a guy didn't belong in there with him, he let them know it, now, some of them quit but some of them came to fight like Bruno. He sent them all packing, In the championship years, wasn't it only Bonecrusher and Tucker to take him the distance? And that was mainly because they really didn't fight to win. So, at least in those years, like Ali in the 60's or Lennox in the later era, if they didn't belong in there, he got rid of them and like them, he wanted everyone. Unlike them, he didn't go on later to do the things they did. Ali didn't seal his greateness beating up the guys he did in the 60's. The Liston win was great but he beat all the guys he was supposed to, it was only after losing it all, and a lot of his skills that he proved his greatness with his diminished capacity. Lennox similarly, dominated the division when he got the title, beat everyone he could get his hands on and the two times he got put out, he came back to kayo his guy. Tyson just didn't do those things.

But, what does that have to do with Fury and todays heavyweights? I dunno, I just know that if Tyson ended up in dire straits with any fighter of any era, he might not be able to reverse the course of a fight. We could say he looked great at one point but, I just don't know sometimes what to do with him. Will we ever see a heavyweight throw combos like that again? I doubt it, only patterson was faster and he was 30 pounds lighter.

 

[mozfonky]

Crusher definitely hurt Mike in there. I believe in the last round and maybe even before that. He just didn't throw nearly enough. I think it was only a couple hundred punches that he threw over the course of the fight. That's terrible. Tucker also hurt Mike in the first round with a well-timed uppercut. It almost dropped him. For whatever reason Mike just kept walking straight in and was getting caught. Like he couldn't be bothered trying to work his way inside behind the jab and bobbing & weaving to close distance.

Bonecrusher was the first guy to really show how to extend Mike by tying him up, after that fight, the press renamed him, "Boneclutcher".

Tucker knocked Mike back, not really sure how bad that actually hurt him, but he didn't do a lot else besides that and he had all the right tools. Big, mobile, great jab, toughness. He brought more to the table than Buster did I'm sure. Just kinda a prima donna if what I heard was correct. Those kinds just don't seem to really be willing to grind it out, unless we're talking about the king of prima donnas, Sugar Ray Leonard, who even his haters will admit the guy had balls of steel.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

He knocked Mike back, not really sure how bad that actually hurt him, but he didn't do a lot else besides that and he had all the right tools. Big, mobile, great jab, toughness. He brought more to the table than Buster did I'm sure. Just kinda a prima donna if what I heard was correct. Those kinds just don't seem to really be willing to grind it out, unless we're talking about the king of prima donnas, Sugar Ray Leonard, who even his haters will admit the guy had balls of steel.

I plan to rewatch Mike vs Bonecrusher in full maybe later today. It was just a really boring fight with both missing a lot of punches. Yeah, Ray was a diva even if his balls were made of steel.

 

[mozfonky]

I plan to rewatch Mike vs Bonecrusher in full maybe later today. It was just a really boring fight with both missing a lot of punches. Yeah, Ray was a diva even if his balls were made of steel.

Really boring, I think that fight was the one Mike denied clinching would be a workable tactic but it would be one of the things to bedevil him the most. Crazy how pro fighters, guys who you'd think had faced vicious punchers many times before wouldn't react like that with Tyson but they did. Jesse Ferguson almost broke Mike's win streak when they disqualified him, fortunately, the politics of the situation forced the referee to lie about Ferguson being incoherent, no, he was just scared shitless.

 

[ssx]

Only guys I'd favor to beat the best version of Tyson is Lennox and Ali at their best.
I think Vitali could give him issues, but I'd still go with Tyson.
Speaking of Tua who was mentioned in the beginning, for a guy that never won a title, I'd favor him over most champions in history. I also think besides Lewis and of course Holyfield, during his comeback Tyson was wise to avoid Tua who IMO would have stopped Tyson.

 

[mozfonky]

Only guys I'd favor to beat the best version of Tyson is Lennox and Ali at their best.
I think Vitali could give him issues, but I'd still go with Tyson.
Speaking of Tua who was mentioned in the beginning, for a guy that never won a title, I'd favor him over most champions in history. I also think besides Lewis and of course Holyfield, during his comeback Tyson was wise to avoid Tua who IMO would have stopped Tyson.

Tua was awesome, very tyson like only slow feet. I don't know what happened to him with Lewis, or.., maybe it was just that reach and height, which is such a pesky thing for short fighters.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Really boring, I think that fight was the one Mike denied clinching would be a workable tactic but it would be one of the things to bedevil him the most. Crazy how pro fighters, guys who you'd think had faced vicious punchers many times before wouldn't react like that with Tyson but they did. Jesse Ferguson almost broke Mike's win streak when they disqualified him, fortunately, the politics of the situation forced the referee to lie about Ferguson being incoherent, no, he was just scared shitless.

Did you ever see Povetkin fight Wladimir Klitschko? It's one of the worst "fights" you'll ever see. He got clinched and leaned on so badly by Wlad that he was rendered completely useless. His arms were heavy, his legs were gone, all because he was forced to carry Wlad's weight. Povetkin didn't know how to counter it because his clinch game hadn't been developed enough. That's the case with most boxers nowadays. Few make extensive use of grappling when it comes to their clinchwork.