Who would have won between Alex Pereira and Mirko Crocop?

[Bullitt68]

Oops, forgot to include this response in my previous posts:

We got robbed of Crocop vs Fedor 2 with that Hunt decision

No, Fedor's always broken hand robbed us of Cro Cop/Fedor II. I was happy to get Cro Cop/Wand II so that Cro Cop could solidify his superiority having evolved so much as an MMA fighter from their 2002 fight, but Wand entered the 2006 OWGP because Fedor busted his hand for the third or fourth time and couldn't participate. That hand really fucked Cro Cop's shit up. It's because of Fedor's busted hand that Cro Cop fought Nogueira for the interim HW title in 2003, and I genuinely believe that 2003 Cro Cop stood a better chance at beating 2003 Fedor than 2005 Cro Cop did at beating 2005 Fedor. In 2003, Cro Cop had all the confidence in the world, was at his fastest and most explosive, and Fedor didn't have time yet to study Cro Cop (as he did watching his teammates Aleks and Magomedov fight Cro Cop) or train for him (as he did with Ernesto Hoost in preparation for their eventual fight). Then, in 2006, Fedor busts that hand again and Cro Cop doesn't get the chance to avenge his loss, which if he would've had a shot at successfully doing so there was no other possible time than that night in September of 2006 when he looked absolutely unstoppable and brutalized Wand and Barnett.

So many MMA "What Ifs...?"

 

[LEWIS540]

I was joking with you. Lighten up, man. Like I said, four people beat Cro Cop in his prime between K-1 and MMA. Only one was a pure striker, and Cro Cop had beaten him before and should've gotten the decision the second time while fighting with a chipped bone in his left ankle. It also always helps when your head is made of steel and you can stay standing after one of these, chipped bone or no...

Not sure what's bizarre about saying I'd be hard-pressed to pick people to beat prime Cro Cop. Besides which, there's a difference between who I could imagine beating Cro Cop and who I actually think would more likely than not beat him. We can nitpick and split hairs, but broadly speaking, based on how terrifyingly effective Cro Cop was at his best, my list of people who I think could take him isn't that long. And Pereira for damn sure ain't on that list.



If by this you mean the fight was close save for the knockdown, then you need to rewatch that fight. Cro Cop pitched a shutout, and while he coasted in rounds four and five after scoring the knockdown at the end of the third, rounds one, two, and three were ALL Cro Cop. He was light on his feet, lightning fast with his blitzes, like a ghost on defense, was muscling Hunt into and out of the corner, hit him with punch combos, low kicks, and middle kicks, all before dropping him with the patented LHK. It was only settled by the knockdown if by that you mean that the LHK was the cherry on top of his flawless victory.



Okay, now I feel like you're just arguing to argue. You think he should've lost to Aerts? He should've gotten the decisions against Hug in K-1 and Hunt in MMA. Against Aerts, he won fairly squarely. He kept Aerts at bay with his all-too-infrequently-used right sidekick, he kept him guessing with left middle kicks and high kicks, and he frustrated Aerts to no end with that fast straight-left blitz, all while completely shutting down Aerts' offense with his footwork and clinches. You might need to rewatch that fight, too.



He didn't dominate Aerts, he just fought intelligently and executed the way he needed to, but he absolutely outclassed Hunt. Knowing that he was down 0-3 and just got kicked in the head, Hunt fought on rage for the last two rounds and woke up a bit, but he had absolutely nothing for Cro Cop and it showed.

Is Mirko your all time favourite fighter/human, by any chance?

You just decided his prime started straight after his career low performance against McDonald and ended 3 months after his career high of winning the GP? Bit arbitrary.


Believe it or not, he’s a fave of mine too, though I always felt he was a bit of a front runner.

 

[LEWIS540]

I was joking with you. Lighten up, man. Like I said, four people beat Cro Cop in his prime between K-1 and MMA. Only one was a pure striker, and Cro Cop had beaten him before and should've gotten the decision the second time while fighting with a chipped bone in his left ankle. It also always helps when your head is made of steel and you can stay standing after one of these, chipped bone or no...

Not sure what's bizarre about saying I'd be hard-pressed to pick people to beat prime Cro Cop. Besides which, there's a difference between who I could imagine beating Cro Cop and who I actually think would more likely than not beat him. We can nitpick and split hairs, but broadly speaking, based on how terrifyingly effective Cro Cop was at his best, my list of people who I think could take him isn't that long. And Pereira for damn sure ain't on that list.



If by this you mean the fight was close save for the knockdown, then you need to rewatch that fight. Cro Cop pitched a shutout, and while he coasted in rounds four and five after scoring the knockdown at the end of the third, rounds one, two, and three were ALL Cro Cop. He was light on his feet, lightning fast with his blitzes, like a ghost on defense, was muscling Hunt into and out of the corner, hit him with punch combos, low kicks, and middle kicks, all before dropping him with the patented LHK. It was only settled by the knockdown if by that you mean that the LHK was the cherry on top of his flawless victory.



Okay, now I feel like you're just arguing to argue. You think he should've lost to Aerts? He should've gotten the decisions against Hug in K-1 and Hunt in MMA. Against Aerts, he won fairly squarely. He kept Aerts at bay with his all-too-infrequently-used right sidekick, he kept him guessing with left middle kicks and high kicks, and he frustrated Aerts to no end with that fast straight-left blitz, all while completely shutting down Aerts' offense with his footwork and clinches. You might need to rewatch that fight, too.



He didn't dominate Aerts, he just fought intelligently and executed the way he needed to, but he absolutely outclassed Hunt. Knowing that he was down 0-3 and just got kicked in the head, Hunt fought on rage for the last two rounds and woke up a bit, but he had absolutely nothing for Cro Cop and it showed.

Remember seeing an interview with him on live Croatian TV where the pissant interviewer mocked Noguiera and question his heart.

CroCop stopped him in his tracks, and put him in his place for daring to question a fellow warrior like that. Respect.

 

[TheBulge]

Alex I think.


Cro Cop wasn't that good a kickboxer and was well overrated as an MMA fighter too.

LOL just went right in. Not even any lube used.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

This forum is filled with so many dumbass noobs and hysterical Poatan fanboys its disgusting. 5+ year old accounts who don't know shit about boxing or kickboxing drinking that fanboy juice.

Poatan was getting his ass beat by LW K-1 Max guys like Artyr Kyshenko and getting out classed by Artem Levin. Guys who wouldn't even qualify for a K1 HWGP slot. Poatan fought in the shittiest era of kickboxing ever when kickboxers made less money than ever.

Mirko was a K-1 HWGP quarter finalist in the most talent stacked era in kickboxing history and knocked out/beat the likes of Remy Bonjasky, Peter Aerts, Andy Hug, Mark Hunt, Jerome LeBanner, Mike Bernardo and Sam Greco.

Every one of these men would have sent Poatan back to the amazon in a wooden box. Poatan wouldn't be able to land a clean shot on Remy. Poatan wouldn't even qualify for such a tournament.

Imagine having to explain to Poatan fanboy that young Mirko was a better fighter than 41 year old Jan who took Poatans best shots and arguably beat him.

You shertards are absolutely disgusting. Educate yourself.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

 

[Vil7]

But he wasn't....

He was an average K1'er and never made it to the top of the tree in MMA either.

He's rated highly for giving a decent showing against Fedor and knocking out a LHW Wand.

Cro Cop was just short of elite in K-1. He wasn't as successful as the top-tier guys like Hoost, Aerts, & Schilt but he was tough and beat some guys that were champions like Hug & Bonjasky.

 

[Vil7]

We got robbed of Crocop vs Fedor 2 with that Hunt decision

I always thought they fucked Cro Cop with the Hunt decision. I think they gave Hunt a lot of points for moving forward and being aggressive. I thought Cro Cop landed the two biggest shots of the fight by far with his axe kick & high kick.

 

[TheGreatA]

It would be an interesting fight because Mirko in his prime was really fast. That's why he declined so early too, he just started to have a slower and more sluggish build.

Old Crocop gets brutally knocked out but the younger version is a real threat to Pereira.

 

[ryun253]

I always thought they fucked Cro Cop with the Hunt decision. I think they gave Hunt a lot of points for moving forward and being aggressive. I thought Cro Cop landed the two biggest shots of the fight by far with his axe kick & high kick.

He does the axe kick so well

 

[Vil7]

He does the axe kick so well

Yeah I think he has a 100% success ratio with axe kicks & is 2 for 2 with one against Hunt and the other against Pat Barry. The Hunt one landed much harder though.

 

[JKS]

I would be inclined to say Perreira

 

[Vil7]

AXE KICK IN THE HUNT!

 

[ryun253]

Yeah I think he has a 100% success ratio with axe kicks & is 2 for 2 with one against Hunt and the other against Pat Barry. The Hunt one landed much harder though.

Yeah totally wish he utilized is more, would be such a cold finish knocking someone out with it Atleast on one of his Japanese opponents

 

[Bullitt68]

Is Mirko your all time favourite fighter/human, by any chance?

No. I'd probably pick Bruce Lee for favorite human while Ken Shamrock is my favorite fighter. But like with Ken, I have to expend a lot of energy these days getting people to learn/remember how good Cro Cop was back in the day, before he started to lose all the time once he got older and his body started to break down.

You just decided his prime started straight after his career low performance against McDonald and ended 3 months after his career high of winning the GP? Bit arbitrary.

Nothing arbitrary about it. Just reasoned judgments based on watching his career from beginning to end. His physical prime was 2002. He was very muscular but still extremely lean, he was strong as fuck but also incredibly fast and light on his feet. His technical prime was 2006. That was when he'd put everything together and had lethal striking and virtually impenetrable TDD topped off with a much-improved ground game and even some nasty GNP. But he'd clearly already lost a step by 2006 compared to 2002, and he got real old real fast between 2006 and 2007, which happens. Sometimes you slowly slide down from atop the hill, the way Fedor slowly slid down from taking it to Cro Cop to struggling a bit too much against Arlovski and Rogers to then getting knocked out by everybody from Dan Henderson to Matt Mitrione and Ryan Bader; other times you go to sleep the champ and wake up over the hill the way it happened to Chuck Liddell.

But Cro Cop's loss to McDonald wasn't his "career low performance" by any stretch. He just got cocky, which was unfortunately his Achilles' heel, though never worse than in that fight when he was still young enough to act so foolish during a fight. He got cocky against McDonald and fought like a doofus and he got clobbered for it. He also looked past Randleman and Gonzaga and he paid for that, too. I'd say his career low performance in K-1 was the third Hoost fight, he just couldn't/wouldn't get out of neutral, and while he was fortunate Hoost obliged him and fought such a lackluster, uneventful fight that they had to go to extra time just for something to happen, if he would've just pressed a bit he might've been able to get a victory over Hoost. And then I'd say his career low performance in MMA was either against Kanehara after the Randleman loss or Barnett after the Fedor loss. Cro Cop fought like the Energizer Bunny, just always competing, and rather than sit and stew in his losses, he always preferred to shake it off by getting another fight real quick. But if the loss really stung, the rebound fight would correspondingly suck as he tried to screw his head back on.

This, of course, is excluding late-career performances where he just didn't have it anymore, which have to be chalked up more to Father Time than Cro Cop himself.

Believe it or not, he’s a fave of mine too, though I always felt he was a bit of a front runner.

As with Ken, I seem to attract people who claim to be fans of the people I'm fans of who do nothing but try to drag them down and convince me that they're not actually that great. It's very strange. It makes me think of the old phrase "With friends like these, who needs enemies?" Again, though, I kid. I'm always happy to talk through the careers of my favorite fighters. You keep calling out what you think is nonsense from me, I'll keep calling out what I think is nonsense from you, and we'll see where we end up

Remember seeing an interview with him on live Croatian TV where the pissant interviewer mocked Noguiera and question his heart.

CroCop stopped him in his tracks, and put him in his place for daring to question a fellow warrior like that. Respect.

That footage has weirdly disappeared from the Internet. I haven't looked for it in a while, but it's been AT LEAST a decade since I've seen that video. But yeah, Cro Cop is all class. Wand bugged him but other than that, he never made things personal, he always showed respect to his fellow fighters, to his fans, to the sport, to PRIDE. Class act through and through. And also just a fun dude. The old Croatian documentary with him having his friends and family do Kimbo-style backyard brawling during a barbecue, and seeing him in Japanese hotels playing pranks knocking on hotel doors and splashing people with water when they opened the door, or of course classics like punking Mauro and singing in the car with Pat Barry, he was so not the soldier-assassin image that gave rise to Cro Cop. Similar to how Quinton Jackson always separated himself from Rampage, Cro Cop was a terrifying killer but Mirko Filipović seemed like the funnest hang.

Spoiler: Cro Goof

 

[Haj01]

Why is there always the need to compare people from different eras? They did not grow up in the same way, did not train the same way, did not diet the same. The sport was not in the same spot, not even the rules are the same. It pretty much boils down to which fighter you prefer and then the narrative is twisted to make it sound educated and sound.

There isn't a need bro but it's fun to fantasise. This is what humans do.

 

[LEWIS540]

No. I'd probably pick Bruce Lee for favorite human while Ken Shamrock is my favorite fighter. But like with Ken, I have to expend a lot of energy these days getting people to learn/remember how good Cro Cop was back in the day, before he started to lose all the time once he got older and his body started to break down.



Nothing arbitrary about it. Just reasoned judgments based on watching his career from beginning to end. His physical prime was 2002. He was very muscular but still extremely lean, he was strong as fuck but also incredibly fast and light on his feet. His technical prime was 2006. That was when he'd put everything together and had lethal striking and virtually impenetrable TDD topped off with a much-improved ground game and even some nasty GNP. But he'd clearly already lost a step by 2006 compared to 2002, and he got real old real fast between 2006 and 2007, which happens. Sometimes you slowly slide down from atop the hill, the way Fedor slowly slid down from taking it to Cro Cop to struggling a bit too much against Arlovski and Rogers to then getting knocked out by everybody from Dan Henderson to Matt Mitrione and Ryan Bader; other times you go to sleep the champ and wake up over the hill the way it happened to Chuck Liddell.

But Cro Cop's loss to McDonald wasn't his "career low performance" by any stretch. He just got cocky, which was unfortunately his Achilles' heel, though never worse than in that fight when he was still young enough to act so foolish during a fight. He got cocky against McDonald and fought like a doofus and he got clobbered for it. He also looked past Randleman and Gonzaga and he paid for that, too. I'd say his career low performance in K-1 was the third Hoost fight, he just couldn't/wouldn't get out of neutral, and while he was fortunate Hoost obliged him and fought such a lackluster, uneventful fight that they had to go to extra time just for something to happen, if he would've just pressed a bit he might've been able to get a victory over Hoost. And then I'd say his career low performance in MMA was either against Kanehara after the Randleman loss or Barnett after the Fedor loss. Cro Cop fought like the Energizer Bunny, just always competing, and rather than sit and stew in his losses, he always preferred to shake it off by getting another fight real quick. But if the loss really stung, the rebound fight would correspondingly suck as he tried to screw his head back on.

This, of course, is excluding late-career performances where he just didn't have it anymore, which have to be chalked up more to Father Time than Cro Cop himself.



As with Ken, I seem to attract people who claim to be fans of the people I'm fans of who do nothing but try to drag them down and convince me that they're not actually that great. It's very strange. It makes me think of the old phrase "With friends like these, who needs enemies?" Again, though, I kid. I'm always happy to talk through the careers of my favorite fighters. You keep calling out what you think is nonsense from me, I'll keep calling out what I think is nonsense from you, and we'll see where we end up



That footage has weirdly disappeared from the Internet. I haven't looked for it in a while, but it's been AT LEAST a decade since I've seen that video. But yeah, Cro Cop is all class. Wand bugged him but other than that, he never made things personal, he always showed respect to his fellow fighters, to his fans, to the sport, to PRIDE. Class act through and through. And also just a fun dude. The old Croatian documentary with him having his friends and family do Kimbo-style backyard brawling during a barbecue, and seeing him in Japanese hotels playing pranks knocking on hotel doors and splashing people with water when they opened the door, or of course classics like punking Mauro and singing in the car with Pat Barry, he was so not the soldier-assassin image that gave rise to Cro Cop. Similar to how Quinton Jackson always separated himself from Rampage, Cro Cop was a terrifying killer but Mirko Filipović seemed like the funnest hang.

Spoiler: Cro Goof

See, Shamrock was a pioneer and a guy who got me into MMA, but he’s getting crushed by modern guys, unlike CroCop who could still be really successful.

Funnily enough, the best performances in kickboxing, or at least up there, were his losses to Hoost and Hug around 2000. 2 razor thin, competitive matches against 2 legends, where all were at the top of their game.

Hard to argue his MMA peak wasn’t the GP final night.

Hate silly GOAT rankings, but where do you rank him in K1 HW golden era/MMA HW.

Probably top 10 in both, but hard to put him top 5 in either, imo. Assume #1 in both for you ?

Pretty mental he’d be a similar size to Rockhold or someone by modern standards .

Obviously Bruce Lee kills all these modern guys.

 

[World eater]

There isn't a need bro but it's fun to fantasise. This is what humans do.

Well, I guess you have a point. But “my guy is stronger than your guy” reminds me too much of elementary school discussions.

 

[kenetics]

Alex I think.


Cro Cop wasn't that good a kickboxer and was well overrated as an MMA fighter too.

He was faster than Alex and could stop takedowns..

 

[Bullitt68]

See, Shamrock was a pioneer and a guy who got me into MMA, but he’s getting crushed by modern guys, unlike CroCop who could still be really successful.

I'm not going to argue about Ken Shamrock in a Cro Cop thread, I'm not going to argue about Ken Shamrock in a Cro Cop thread...but find me in here if you want to talk about Ken: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/ken-vs-barnett.4333035/.

Funnily enough, the best Hoost in performance in kickboxing, or at least up there, were his losses to Hoost and Hug around 2000. 2 razor thin, competitive matches against 2 legends, where all were at the top of their game.

If you can't agree with me that the Hug fight was a straight-up robbery since he was fighting a marketed farewell fight in his hometown and was going to win that decision no matter what happened between bells, then we're not seeing the same fights. Cro Cop went axe kick for axe kick with the Swiss Kyokushin legend and in one sequence literally beats him post to post with a monster punch flurry that includes an uppercut that I'm surprised didn't take Hug's head off his body. That third Hoost fight in the 2000 GP, though, not Cro Cop's finest hour, nor Hoost's for that matter. Their second fight, the battle in the 1999 GP finals, that was the two of them hungry and going at each other. Cro Cop was too high-kick happy and kept trying to force the straight left-right hook-left high kick combo that he knocked out Mike Bernardo with, while Hoost stayed patient, waited for his opening, realized that he wasn't going to be able to low kick him to death like their first fight, and then found the liver and put him down to the body. Even in losing, that was a great showing from Cro Cop making it to the GP finals after being away from K-1 for three years and not competing all that much by that point and then taking it to the GOAT in one of his strongest years atop K-1.

Hard to argue his MMA peak wasn’t the GP final night.

That September night in 2006, the only human I'm saying could've beaten that Cro Cop was Fedor, and I wouldn't have been surprised in the least if Cro Cop had knocked even him out. Cro Cop was fed up being the also-ran, he stated publicly that if he didn't win the OWGP he'd retire from competition forever, he had to win, and he fought like he was fighting for his life. He never looked like that, he never moved like that. He was truly a man possessed that night. People talk about Anderson Silva being in the Matrix...

...that's just about the slickest and scariest shit I've seen from a striker in MMA history. That combination of speed and power, I mean he fucking folds Wand in half with that kick and then he floats around him like his feet aren't even on the ground. If there's a fight where it looks like someone's trying to fight a ghost, it's Wand trying to figure out where the fuck Cro Cop is to hit.

Hate silly GOAT rankings, but where do you rank him in K1 HW golden era/MMA HW.

If we're basing these rankings more on career accomplishments than head-to-head match-ups, then the lists will look different. Career all-time in K-1 and MMA, he'd be near the bottom of the top 10 if he makes it in K-1 and maybe top 15 in MMA. In K-1, Hoost, Aerts, and Schilt have to be on the Olympic podium. After them, there's Hug, JLB, Bonjasky, Badr Hari. He'd be somewhere down after them battling out for the top ten amongst Filho, Sefo, and Bernardo. In MMA, Fedor, Nogueira, Couture, Mir, Sylvia, Arlovski, Cain, JDS, Stipe, Cormier, Ngannou, they've done some impressive shit, won and defended titles, maybe he deserves the top 10 with his wins over Herring, Igor, Fujita, Aleks, Barnett, and Coleman, but he would've helped his case if he could've avenged his Nogueira loss in the OWGP instead of beating Barnett a third time or if he could've beaten Gonzaga and then taken the belt from Couture in 2007. As it stands, I think he's somewhere in the #10-#15 slots.

Probably top 10 in both, but hard to put him top 5 in either, imo. Assume #1 in both for you ?

Haha, joke's on you, you're ranking him higher overall than I am.

Pretty mental he’d be a similar size to Rockhold or someone by modern standards .

One of many Cro Cop gems:

Obviously Bruce Lee kills all these modern guys.