Who was better on the ground - GSP or Anderson Silva?

[Mike]

How is this even a debate? Pretty obviously it's gsp, since he's never been dominated on the ground the way Silva has.

It turns out defense is also a part of fighting

 

[bjpenngoat]

Its a debate in how we define better on the ground. No one can deny that Georges was great at takedowns and top control. That was literally his entire game plan unless the opponent was perceived as a good wrestler like Jake sheilds and kos he kept it standing the entire time for fear of getting out wreslted and obviously it backfired on him against Jake when his awful kick boxing skills made Jake sheilds look like Giorgio Petrosyan for a few rounds.
Georges never finished fights while in dominant position. That excludes him for any all time great grappler lists. He is not a grappler or some sort of ground specialist. He's a guy who had amazing timing and figured out how to avoid damage and stall his way to multiple victories.

 

[Fioretti]

According to the official UFC stats, they're close in takedowns:

-Silva has a 77% success rate of takedowns, and 69% defense rate.

-GSP has a 74% success rate of takedowns, and 83% defense rate.

Submissions:

-Silva attempted .8 subs per 15 minutes, and has 3 submission victories, all 3 in title fights.

- GSP attempted 1.1 subs per 15 minutes, and has 4 submission victories, 2 in title fights.

Not as big of a disparity as most would think, with Silva having a higher takedown % (surpising) and submission rate (not so surpising).

 

[bjpenngoat]

Gsps two sub victories come.against matt Hughes who was busy filming the movie Cocoon because he was so old at that time and one eyed cyclops washed out bisping.

 

[Fioretti]

Gsps two sub victories come.against matt Hughes who was busy filming the movie Cocoon because he was so old at that time and one eyed cyclops washed out bisping.

Another one against Frank Trigg, who legend says has been RNC'd by a turtleneck.

GSP also never defended his title with a submission, both subs in title fights were to capture gold. All 3 of Silva's were defenses.

Jokes aside, 4 subs is 4 subs. GSP was a savage before he fought to safeguard his money.

 

[bjpenngoat]

The problem.with gsp is every single one of his opponents were finished in over 60% of their fights after their title fights. They were either shot old guys or all highly overrated contenders who were truly only .500 fighters.

 

[pankrat]

Its a debate in how we define better on the ground. No one can deny that Georges was great at takedowns and top control. That was literally his entire game plan unless the opponent was perceived as a good wrestler like Jake sheilds and kos he kept it standing the entire time for fear of getting out wreslted and obviously it backfired on him against Jake when his awful kick boxing skills made Jake sheilds look like Giorgio Petrosyan for a few rounds.
Georges never finished fights while in dominant position. That excludes him for any all time great grappler lists. He is not a grappler or some sort of ground specialist. He's a guy who had amazing timing and figured out how to avoid damage and stall his way to multiple victories.

Very interesting opinion.
But the opinion of plenty of pro fighters he has fought or trained with is that GSP is an awesome grappler with freak grip strenght

 

[Fioretti]

The problem.with gsp is every single one of his opponents were finished in over 60% of their fights after their title fights. They were either shot old guys or all highly overrated contenders who were truly only .500 fighters.

His strength of schedule is boosted by counting Hughes 3 times, who had 40+ wins and few losses. His opponents were finished more times both prior to and after their title fights than Silva's, so the whole "he fought top guys who were hard to finish" is pure bullshit. Just another example of his fanboys trying to change reality.

That said, this thread is about his ground game. In my opinion, his ground game as a whole is vastly overrated, but his takedowns, tdd, and top control are not.

 

[Intellidamus]

According to the official UFC stats, they're close in takedowns:

-Silva has a 77% success rate of takedowns, and 69% defense rate.

-GSP has a 74% success rate of takedowns, and 83% defense rate.

Submissions:

-Silva attempted .8 subs per 15 minutes, and has 3 submission victories, all 3 in title fights.

- GSP attempted 1.1 subs per 15 minutes, and has 4 submission victories, 2 in title fights.

Not as big of a disparity as most would think, with Silva having a higher takedown % (surpising) and submission rate (not so surpising).

Andy didn’t even qualify for the minimum of 20 career takedown attempts in his career. GSP has over 120. Seems to show opportunistic takedowns by Andy rather than consistent efficiency.
And the gap in tdd percentage is rather large.

 

[Fioretti]

Andy didn’t even qualify for the minimum of 20 career takedown attempts in his career. GSP has over 120. Seems to show opportunistic takedowns by Andy rather than consistent efficiency.
And the gap in tdd percentage is rather large.

GSP spammed more takedowns, clearly. That gives less value to each successful and failed takedown. If he had exactly 120 takedown attempts and was successful 74% of the time, that means he failed 31-32 times. If Silva only attempted 17 takedowns, he would have to fail only 4.5 of those attempts to be at the same percentage as GSP. Yet, his percentage of successful takedowns is higher. It's all relative.

Which number is of greater value? 77 or 74?

 

[bjpenngoat]

Hughes was also close to 40 when Georges finally beat him twice. Take out Hughes and even with the one bj win its a pedestrian lot of contenders. Georges easily had the most favorable schedule of .500 contenders.

 

[SaltFork]

Silva

 

[Intellidamus]

GSP spammed more takedowns, clearly. That gives less value to each successful and failed takedown. If he had exactly 120 takedown attempts and was successful 74% of the time, that means he failed 31-32 times. If Silva only attempted 17 takedowns, he would have to fail only 4.5 of those attempts to be at the same percentage as GSP. Yet, his percentage of successful takedowns is higher. It's all relative.

Which number is of greater value? 77 or 74?

A great example would be basketball or baseball. Where field goal pct and batting average leaders usually have much higher pct. early on than they do by the end of the season. The pct have a way of finding their true avg as attempts go up.
77 is greater than 74 my friend. Therefore Andy is a better takedown artist than GSP. Lmao
Huge gap there of 3%.
Which is greater, 83 or 69?
What is the difference?

 

[Fioretti]

A great example would be basketball or baseball. Where field goal pct and batting average leaders usually have much higher pct. early on than they do by the end of the season. The pct have a way of finding their true avg as attempts go up.
77 is greater than 74 my friend. Therefore Andy is a better takedown artist than GSP. Lmao
Huge gap there of 3%.
Which is greater, 83 or 69?
What is the difference?

I'm literally shocked you answered a question directly on the first attempt. Very good!

83 is clearly higher than 69. GSP had a higher defense rate of takedowns. That has already been established.

I understand how attempts correlate to efficiency over time, but it doesn't negate facts. I never said Silva was a better takedown artist, I said he had a higher success rate of takedowns, which is fact. Your same argument would apply to takedown defense. How many people tried to take GSP down in comparison to the attempts on Silva?

Facts remain. GSP has higher TDD %, Silva has a higher successful takedown %, GSP has one more submission, and Silva has a higher submission rate. Silva has a giant lead on finishing fights on the ground overall.

It's a lot more even than you want it to be, and you're comparing (in essence) a striker to a grappler.

 

[vik93]

The GOAT choked out prime Hendo (after brutal GnP) and KOd Marquardt, Vitor, Okami, Irvin, etc with the most accurate ground and pound we’ve ever seen

Anderson finishes people on the ground. GSP lays on them and can’t finish. See the Dan Hardy 5 round snooze fest

Your opinion is useless. You don’t even think he’s failed drug tests. “Most accurate”. Somehow you’ve found a way to suck his dick and take it up your ass at the same time.

 

[Fioretti]

Your opinion is useless. You don’t even think he’s failed drug tests. “Most accurate”. Somehow you’ve found a way to suck his dick and take it up your ass at the same time.

All childish insults aside, are you contesting Silva's finishing ability on the ground or his GnP accuracy?

 

[Intellidamus]

I'm literally shocked you answered a question directly on the first attempt. Very good!

83 is clearly higher than 69. GSP had a higher defense rate of takedowns. That has already been established.

I understand how attempts correlate to efficiency over time, but it doesn't negate facts. I never said Silva was a better takedown artist, I said he had a higher success rate of takedowns, which is fact. Your same argument would apply to takedown defense. How many people tried to take GSP down in comparison to the attempts on Silva?

Facts remain. GSP has higher TDD %, Silva has a higher successful takedown %, GSP has one more submission, and Silva has a higher submission rate.

It's a lot more even than you want it to be, and you're comparing (in essence) a striker to a grappler.

GSP has 6 sub victories, Andy has 3. Just a clarification.
In terms of attempts on either? I’d have to see the actual numbers. Obviously in theory it would appear Andy would be targeted more, but also had many short fights. Have to look.

 

[bjpenngoat]

I feel like the arguments for Silva are more compelling and have actual data whereas Georges has only mass accumulation of TD's. No one had to take Georges down because he was not a threat on the feet to anyone. Yet the second he felt the wind of a punch he dove for legs.

 

[Fioretti]

GSP has 6 sub victories, Andy has 3. Just a clarification.
In terms of attempts on either? I’d have to see the actual numbers. Obviously in theory it would appear Andy would be targeted more, but also had many short fights. Have to look.

GSP has 4 subs in the UFC. The stats used are from the UFC website, so the 1.1 attempted subs per 15 mins is from his UFC fights, and we can only include his UFC submissions to get an accurate submission rate, which is lower than Silva's.

"Ground game" - to me anyway - would also include GnP victories. In this case, we have to include many more finishes for Silva, but I was just sticking to td/tdd/subs because those numbers are provided on the site.

 

[ThunderStruck]

According to the official UFC stats, they're close in takedowns:

-Silva has a 77% success rate of takedowns, and 69% defense rate.

-GSP has a 74% success rate of takedowns, and 83% defense rate.

Submissions:

-Silva attempted .8 subs per 15 minutes, and has 3 submission victories, all 3 in title fights.

- GSP attempted 1.1 subs per 15 minutes, and has 4 submission victories, 2 in title fights.

Not as big of a disparity as most would think, with Silva having a higher takedown % (surpising) and submission rate (not so surpising).

Do you think those stats is a good representative of their actual takedown abilities though? I mean how many takedowns has Silva ever attempted? 3-4? Against who?

Oh and the 83% defense rate vs 69% means GSP has two times the success, against much better wreslters on top of that.