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Opinion Which Presidential Election loss was more consequential? Al Gore losing the 2000 Election or Hillary Clinton losing the 2016 Election?

Primaries didn't start until the early 1900s (as a result of the Progressive Movement) and didn't really matter until the '50s, and it wasn't until the '70s that they became the primary determinant of who represents the parties. That was a big mistake, BTW.
 
Dump winning took US politics to a low brow, comical level the likes of which it has never seen before.

It opened a floodgate of retards (see: MTG, Gaetz, etc.) into an arena that should never have been accessible to them and it will take decades for America to regain her once great foothold on world hegemony.
 
Uh that's not what I said but I'm not surprised you'd respond with this kind of post.

If people don't like it they can and should make it know to the relevant party but to equate that with Trump's attempted coup strikes me as a false equivalency. Trump was asking Pence to ignore the Electoral Count Act of 1887, big difference.
Yes, ignoring the will of the people is different when the DNC does it. Or are you now pretending to not care that Trump tried to throw out votes?

Also, if the “people don’t like it” what should they do, exactly? I mean, it’s obviously that they just don’t understand how “democracy” works in the US, right?
 
Yes, ignoring the will of the people is different when the DNC does it. Or are you now pretending to not care that Trump tried to throw out votes?

Also, if the “people don’t like it” what should they do, exactly? I mean, it’s obviously just that they just don’t understand how “democracy” works in the US, right?
Do you understand that primaries are privately organized whereas the general election is a core constitutional process?
 
Do you understand that primaries are privately organized whereas the general election is a core constitutional process?
Do I understand that the process that I’m complaining about exists? What is it with you guys…? I’m literally telling you that our votes in the primaries are pointless- which part of that makes you think I don’t know that our votes don’t count in the primaries? Deferring to, “well they’re private organizations” as some sort of excuse for this anti democratic process changes nothing.

Further, I’m saying that before 2016 people were under the illusion that their votes actually counted (an illusion promoted by the parties probably to keep voters complacent).

Tell me, what is the point of voting for the president if we have zero say regarding who is running? Do you actually consider this democratic?
 
You’re simply parroting what I’ve stated about the DNC and then telling me I lack understanding for criticizing this anti democratic process. I understand the process but believe it is antithetical to democratic principles.

Prior to 2016, it was not common knowledge that peoples’ votes in the primaries were meaningless (hence the lawsuits and political fallout after DNC rigged the “election”) and that is when the DNC was exposed and the general public learned that they have no say in who represents them as president.
What do you mean it wasn't common knowledge? It's been this way for years. Please don't suggest that finally learning something that is publicly available means that something is rigged.

The lawsuit that you're referencing was filed by idiots and was dismissed by the judge because it lacked merit. The court held that "To the extent Plaintiffs wish to air their general grievances with the DNC or its candidate selection process, their redress is through the ballot box, the DNC’s internal workings, or their right of free speech — not through the judiciary."

If you're going to reference a lawsuit as proof of something, it's better to pick one that made legal sense as opposed to one that no one in their right mind found credible.
 
Do I understand that the process that I’m complaining about exists? What is it with you guys…? I’m literally telling you that our votes in the primaries are pointless- which part of that makes you think I don’t know that our votes don’t count in the primaries? Deferring to, “well they’re private organizations” as some sort of excuse for this anti democratic process changes nothing.

Further, I’m saying that before 2016 people were under the illusion that their votes actually counted (an illusion promoted by the parties probably to keep voters complacent).

Tell me, what is the point of voting for the president if we have zero say regarding who is running? Do you actually consider this democratic?
The issue is that you're calling it "rigged" when the process is pretty open to anyone who bothers to understand it. It is insane to know exactly how something works, watch it work exactly as we've been told it works and then claim that when it does what we've been told it does that is proof that it was rigged.

That's a level of inanity that I can't fathom. It's like buying a car that gets 15 miles to gallon after being told that the car gets 15 miles to gallon then claiming that the salesman defrauded you because the car gets 15 miles to the gallon.

As for who you vote for...

You don't have to vote for the Democratic candidate just because they're the Democratic candidate. If you don't like who the DNC trots out as their candidate, vote for someone else. Your vote in the general election does matter since the electoral college in most states has agreed to vote for whomever wins the popular vote in that state.

But, once again, none of this means you have to vote the DNC or RNC candidate just because they're the party's candidate. In 2016, if you wanted to vote for Sanders, you could have. And if enough people did, he would have been President regardless of what the DNC did with their nomination.

The democratic process is the federal election, not the private organization's primaries. They shouldn't be equated with each other.
 
i think america would have demanded blood someway,it was an unprecedented shock, but im not sure a democrat admin would have made as many blunders.if that happened today they would simply drone the fuck out of the offending nation.
You have more faith in the democratic party of that time than I do.
 
Clinton’s loss. I think an alternative with Gore is harder to know for certain than an alternative with Clinton.
 
- Was all Bush Jr fault wasnt his cabinet wanting war for whatnever reason? As a poster said before. Trump isnt a leader, he is a charismatic manipulative person.
you couldnt be more wrong on trump, and one day you will see it. Tackling the border when EVERYONE turned a blind eye for decades. Replacing NAFTA was monumental, and no one in power even attempted for decades. Talking with north korea when we were in drumming up war talks....... Taxing countries in NATO. Tariffs on Chyna. Flight ban from unfavorable countries aka muslim ban.

you may not agree with what he did here, but this is absolutely leadership, these sacred institutions would have been untouched. If you want to look at the LACK of leadership, have a look at that clown named Obama. He was supposed to fix health care, and he let an exec write the bill and mandating private health care be paid by all...... he sold that shit hook line and sinker. Health insurance to this day is an absolute disaster in america.
 
But they wouldn't have picked the correct country because the backend Pentagon piece was always going to drive that decision. And Al Gore wouldn't have had the political strength to tell them no. Americans wanted blood. And even if we picked the "correct country", it's the same War on Terror conversation and Patriot Act outcomes.

I just don't see how we don't end up fighting terrorists in the Middle East regardless of which country we initiated the invasion through.
We invaded Afghanistan and that was fine as it really was connected to 9-11. I’m sure Gore would have supported that.

I can’t see Iraq happening. That invasion was the brain child of the Bush administration, who campaigned ruthlessly to get it approved by congress. It was not connected to 9-11 but the administration definitely did their best to blur that line in the general public.

It’s kind of sickening to think about today
 
you couldnt be more wrong on trump, and one day you will see it. Tackling the border when EVERYONE turned a blind eye for decades. Replacing NAFTA was monumental, and no one in power even attempted for decades. Talking with north korea when we were in drumming up war talks....... Taxing countries in NATO. Tariffs on Chyna. Flight ban from unfavorable countries aka muslim ban.

you may not agree with what he did here, but this is absolutely leadership, these sacred institutions would have been untouched. If you want to look at the LACK of leadership, have a look at that clown named Obama. He was supposed to fix health care, and he let an exec write the bill and mandating private health care be paid by all...... he sold that shit hook line and sinker. Health insurance to this day is an absolute disaster in america.
Jeez my guy. He did not “tax NATO.” That’s not something we can do. He called out some of the members for not meeting their targeted spending. They aren’t actually obligated to meet it either, but I actually do agree with him for calling it out publicly.

The North Korea thing was a joke. He wasn’t the first to bring up the border. The border is something that’s been talked about for my entire life. He dialed up the rhetoric I guess.

Calling out China and slapping tariffs on them was a good thing. Not unironically though, I see tons of right wing posters on here bash Biden for ramping up the embargos and tarrifs on China. But then I guess that’s how stupid partisan politics has made the average person. Even when the other team does something they want or agree with, they’ll find a way to make it a negative
 
Jeez my guy. He did not “tax NATO.” That’s not something we can do. He called out some of the members for not meeting their targeted spending. They aren’t actually obligated to meet it either, but I actually do agree with him for calling it out publicly.

The North Korea thing was a joke. He wasn’t the first to bring up the border. The border is something that’s been talked about for my entire life. He dialed up the rhetoric I guess.

Calling out China and slapping tariffs on them was a good thing. Not unironically though, I see tons of right wing posters on here bash Biden for ramping up the embargos and tarrifs on China. But then I guess that’s how stupid partisan politics has made the average person. Even when the other team does something they want or agree with, they’ll find a way to make it a negative
we were talking a little too much about NK and a potential war there.... shades of Iraq, and you can say it's a joke, there have been presidents going there to negotiate, never a sitting president, that's unprecedented.

Trump literally built the wall, that's not just talk, that's action. illegal immigration was simply hot air talking points for decades, there's no point in talking about it if there's no control. The wall was significant whether you agree with it or not, the last installment prior was during the clinton years. Biden stopped trumps wall.... an example of trumps failure would be a mandate of everify..... trump couldnt make it happen, and you can ding points on that, but he did build parts of the wall, and of course you cant build the whole thing overnight......

trump tariffs literally got the ball rolling, havent paid attention on Biden's piggybacking, but you can guarantee there would be no tariffs if not for trump. Unfair practices being addressed, which was ignored by bush, ignored by obama.
 
Dump winning took US politics to a low brow, comical level the likes of which it has never seen before.

It opened a floodgate of retards (see: MTG, Gaetz, etc.) into an arena that should never have been accessible to them and it will take decades for America to regain her once great foothold on world hegemony.
Hillary would have maintained hegemony how exactly?
 
Gore, for several reasons

1. He didn't actually lose
2. It set a precedent, where a partisan supreme Court can just declare a winner
3. Bush and the Iraq War


Trump is small fry, just a clown that memed his way into the presidency, soon to be flushed down the toilet a 2nd time
 
What do you mean it wasn't common knowledge? It's been this way for years. Please don't suggest that finally learning something that is publicly available means that something is rigged.

No, the fact that it was rigged means that it was rigged.

“The leaks resulted in allegations of bias against Bernie Sanders's presidential campaign, in apparent contradiction with the DNC leadership's publicly stated neutrality,[8] as several DNC operatives openly derided Sanders's campaign and discussed ways to advance Hillary Clinton's nomination. Later reveals included controversial DNC–Clinton agreements dated before the primary, regarding financial arrangements and control over policy and hiring decisions.[9] The revelations prompted the resignation of DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz before the 2016 Democratic National Convention.[10]The DNC issued a formal apology to Bernie Sanders and his supporters…”
The lawsuit that you're referencing was filed by idiots and was dismissed by the judge because it lacked merit. The court held that "To the extent Plaintiffs wish to air their general grievances with the DNC or its candidate selection process, their redress is through the ballot box, the DNC’s internal workings, or their right of free speech — not through the judiciary."

Yes, the judge ruled that the DNC can do whatever they want, even rig the primaries.

DNC to Court: We Are a Private Corporation With No Obligation to Follow Our Rules​

The issue is that you're calling it "rigged" when the process is pretty open to anyone who bothers to understand it. It is insane to know exactly how something works, watch it work exactly as we've been told it works and then claim that when it does what we've been told it does that is proof that it was rigged.
The process was far from “open to anyone” that’s why the DNC caught flack, because they were caught concealing their actions favoring Clinton.

“Leaked emails show the Democratic National Committee scrambled this spring to conceal the details of a joint fundraising arrangement with Hillary Clinton that funneled money through state Democratic parties.“

“Several of the emails released indicate that the officials, including Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, grew increasingly agitated with Clinton's rival, Bernie Sanders, and his campaign as the primary season advanced, in one instance even floating bringing up Sanders' religion to try and minimize his support.“

“The emails show the officials agreeing to withhold information from reporters about the Hillary Victory Fund’s allocation formula, working to align their stories about when — or if — the DNC had begun funding coordinated campaign committees with the states... Between the creation of the victory fund in September and the end of last month, the fund had brought in $142 million, the lion’s share of which — 44 percent — has wound up in the coffers of the DNC ($24.4 million) and Hillary for America ($37.6 million), according to a POLITICO analysis of FEC reports filed this month. By comparison, the analysis found that the state parties have kept less than $800,000 of all the cash brought in by the committee — or only 0.56 percent.“

If you don't like who the DNC trots out as their candidate, vote for someone else.

<puhlease>

The democratic process is the federal election, not the private organization's primaries. They shouldn't be equated with each other.
Yes, our “democracy” in the US constitutes voting for the candidate that private organizations handpick while lying to their constituents that they actually have a say… that’s a problem.
 
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