In 2007 beats Swick and McDonald and takes top5 Franklin to a extremely close dec in which Yushin gets close to get the finish. A fight you did not watched and said he got "soundly beaten" not even hiding that you are here trolling / being a kiddo
In 2006 takes top5 Shields to a highly controversial decision. Another fight that you did not watched. It was Shields toughest fight in that mythical 15 winning streak of his than ended with GSP
> Okami's ranked wins going into the Silva fight: 4.
> Fitch's ranked wins going into the GSP fight: 1
Honestly, they're close. I'm biased towards GSP and voted for him.
If you look at it from the fights alone, I'd say Silva. Okami came at him aggressive in round 1 and could do literally nothing, with Silva showing him who was the boss by rocking him bad at the end of the round. Then he finished him in round 2.
GSP vs Fitch showed how deep his skillet was in literally everything. It highlighted how far ahead he was of the division in every way. But it didn't have the same impact to me as Silva's did.
The reason I go with GSP was the longevity of Fitch after that fight. Fitch went years without another loss. And even after that, he still put some solid wins together late in his career. Fitch likely would have been champ if GSP wasn't in that division. Idk of I'd say the same for Okami.
You're wrong. He lost to Wilson Gouveia in December 2002. He lost to Mike Pyle in July 2002. He was 3-2 on December 13th 2002, then had a NC in his next fight, making him 3-2 1 NC. He lost to Hendricks December of 2011. He was 24-4-1 with 1 NC on December 30th of 2011. Are you just trying to discard his first two losses? 2 losses in a 5 month span?
He went undefeated from July 2003 through August 7th 2008. He faced one top 10 opponent in that time frame, and won by split decision. He also had a very fucky match against Joslin in July of 2005, right in the middle of that streak, where he actually lost the fight, but somehow pulled out a split decision victory because the ref was incompetent.
The fuck you tryin to do here with your selective, yet incorrect, bullshit? Be real, homie.
You’re still not understanding. Go from after the loss to Wilson right up until his loss to Hendricks. That’s a 9 year run with 21 wins and 1 loss.
This is how a lot of runs are grouped, it is somewhat selective but it certainly isn’t out of the ordinary to calculate that way, and when you do, you get the numbers I gave.
The additional facts you’re giving aren’t inaccurate, they just don’t contradict the facts I gave either.
Selective bullshit goes both ways. Fitch only lost 1 170lb fight in nearly a decade.
He fought those fights @205lb’s does the name Mike Pyle LHW fighter of many years. The dude is massive. He downed prime Bigfoot in a HW fight. Talk about just looking shit up and not having any understanding. Mike Kyle would have also wrecked Okami in his first 4 fights.
Mike Pyle is not Mike Kyle, friend. Who doesn't have an understanding of what? Your shit is all over the place. Fitch lost 4 fights (officially) in 9 years, had 1 draw, and 1 NC. Then there's the Joslin scenario. Keep it real, homie.
You’re still not understanding. Go from after the loss to Wilson right up until his loss to Hendricks. That’s a 9 year run with 21 wins and 1 loss.
This is how a lot of runs are grouped, it is somewhat selective but it certainly isn’t out of the ordinary to calculate that way, and when you do, you get the numbers I gave.
The additional facts you’re giving aren’t inaccurate, they just don’t contradict the facts I gave either.
I'm not giving "additional facts", I'm giving facts. You're trying to fabricate a narrative, and I'm calling you on it. You said he went 21-1-1 in 9 years, only losing to GSP. In reality, he went 24-4-1 with 1 NC in 9 years and 5 months, and only accumulated 3 top 10 wins along the way. He had ONE top 10 win when he faced GSP. One. Uno. Everything else he did is just padding. He hadn't even been a ranked fighter for a full year. He never won a title eliminator. He beat unranked Chris Wilson, who was making his UFC debut, to earn his title shot. Travis Fulton had a 40 fight win streak at one point. Was he the consensus #2 HW? Why not?
Mike Pyle is not Mike Kyle, friend. Who doesn't have an understanding of what? Your shit is all over the place. Fitch lost 4 fights (officially) in 9 years, had 1 draw, and 1 NC. Then there's the Joslin scenario. Keep it real, homie.
I messed the two up. But like both those fights were LHW fights. He only had one WW loss for a long ass time dude. Okami was losing in his weight class and there was CLEARLY better guys. Franklin, Sonnen, Hendo, Vitor, Maia and a few others. His title shot was more a cycle through. Everyone thought Fitch was the guy behind GSP for some time. He only lost 1 welterweight fight in 9.5 years and it was to GSP. He went 14–1 in the UFC @ welterweight until someone else beat him. Fitch and Shields were GSP’s best wins. I’m a much bigger Anderson fan but Okami is dog shit compared to his better wins.
I messed the two up. But like both those fights were LHW fights. He only had one WW loss for a long ass time dude. Okami was losing in his weight class and there was CLEARLY better guys. Franklin, Sonnen, Hendo, Vitor, Maia and a few others. His title shot was more a cycle through. Everyone thought Fitch was the guy behind GSP for some time. He only lost 1 welterweight fight in 9.5 years and it was to GSP. He went 14–1 in the UFC @ welterweight until someone else beat him. Fitch and Shields were GSP’s best wins. I’m a much bigger Anderson fan but Okami is dog shit compared to his better wins.
He's had one fight outside of WW in his entire 40 fight career, and that was against Shonie Carter at MW in 2003. Edit: looks like the Gouveia fight was at 205, but Fitch doesn't look undersized at all. His second fight against Alves was a catchweight, but only because Alves came in yuge...again.
Okami won TWO title eliminators. The first one was against former champ (top 5 ranked) Evan Tanner in 2008. He had to pull out of his title fight due to injury and Silva fought Cote instead, and then his second title eliminator was against #3 Nate Marquardt in 2010. As shown above by @pankrat , Okami was steady ranked in the top 5 at MW from 2008-2013. FIVE years of being a top 5 fighter. He remained in the top 5 for 2 years after losing to Silva, and was top 5-10 for 3 years prior to his actual title shot. He came into his title shot with 4 top 10 wins. On the contrary, Fitch wasn't even ranked top 10 for a year when he fought GSP. Fitch entered the top 10 with a split decision win over #5 Diego Sanchez in September of 2007, then faced an unranked UFC newcomer 6 months later to get his title shot. How exactly was he the "guy behind GSP"? He didn't win a single title eliminator, and he only had ONE top 10 win in his entire career at that point. Funny you mention his 14-1 streak in the UFC. That's glorifying it a bit, but I'll elaborate for you. Jon Fitch went 14-3-1 in the UFC in just shy of 7.5 years. He acquired 3 top 10 wins in this time, one of them being Paulo Thiago - who was literally only ranked for roughly 5 months after KO'ing Koscheck. He faced 6 top 10 fighters over 18 fights (only 33% of his UFC career was against ranked fighters) and he went 3-2-1 in those 6 fights. He won only half of his ranked fights. 3 out of 6, bud. That's 50% against ranked competition. This is your #2 guy who would be champ if it weren't for GSP? Tell me why. Tell me how.
To go just a wee bit further here, friend, let me shed some more light on the question at hand here. Okami was 27-5 when faced Silva for the title. He had been finished only once in his 32 fight career. 1 in 5 losses is 20%. Fitch was 19-2 1 NC when he faced GSP for the title. He was finished in both of his losses. 2 out of 2 is 100%. Okami was finished in 20% of his losses, yet Silva KO's him flawlessly in 7 minutes. Fitch was finished in 100% of his losses, yet GSP can't put him away. GSP becomes the first person to beat Fitch and not finish him. Go a little bit down the line and look at Fitch's career losses. He's been beaten 8 times and finished 6 times. He's been finished in 75% of his losses. GSP is one of two men who could beat Fitch, but not put him away. Maia is the other.
Please tell me how decisioning 19-2 Jon Fitch, who had been finished every time he lost, wasn't even ranked top 10 for 1 full year, and only had 1 top 10 win, is somehow more significant or a better performance than KO'ing 27-5 Yushin Okami, who had only been finished once in 32 fights/5 losses, was ranked top 5 for 3 years, had 4 top 10 wins, won 2 title eliminators, and had success/experience in 3 different weight classes. How? Is it because the WW division was pretty fuckin shallow at the time and a shiny win streak over nobodies was a good selling point to build up some hype around a guy who had nothing for the champion? Weird.
So Shields was ranked top10 p4p yet Okami beat him in the eyes of most observers, an official judge, and the American people in attendance who booed the decision in favour of the American fighter.
Meanwhile, Fitch's best win coming into his fight with GSP was #5 WW Sánchez by SD, in about as close decision as Okami vs Shields was.
You basically made my point. You being a fight finder rat like some other kiddos in this same page of thread did it unpurposedly but thanks anyways
You realize there was like 4-5 years between Okami vs Shields and when he fought GSP? During which he totally dominated Silva's best win Hendo, as a WW vs a MW.
In 2007 beats Swick and McDonald and takes top5 Franklin to a extremely close dec in which Yushin gets close to get the finish. A fight you did not watched and said he got "soundly beaten" not even hiding that you are here trolling / being a kiddo
In 2006 takes top5 Shields to a highly controversial decision. Another fight that you did not watched. It was Shields toughest fight in that mythical 15 winning streak of his than ended with GSP
> Okami's ranked wins going into the Silva fight: 4.
> Fitch's ranked wins going into the GSP fight: 1
Fitch was ranked #2 for 36 out of 42 months. You have to cherry pick a SPECIFIC DATE to show Okami ranked number 2, something he maintained for what? 4-5 months total?
I don't have to cherry pick a date to show Fitch ranked number 2. He was ranked that for the good part of 4 straight years, the only time he wasn't is when he was knocked down in the rankings due to his loss to GSP, at which point alves got the #2 spot (you know, the same way Sonnen lost to Silva which awarded Okami his undeserved #2 spot?). 6 months later Fitch was back to #2.
Tell me what is better :
Being ranked #2 for 36 months in a stacked divison
or
Being ranked #2 for 5 months in a weak division, a ranking awarded due to Sonnen losing to the champ even though he beat Okami.
Which is better?
You can't say Fitch and Okami's rankings were similar while keeping a straight face.
Fact:
> Diego Sanchez, despite undersized, gave Fitch a extremely tough fight to a Split Dec.
> #5 Diego Sanchez was the only ranked win in Fitch career at the time ehe fought GSP.
> Fitch was submitted by unranked Joslin in his very last fight out of UFC, which stands as a W in his record due to a gross referee mistake. Yes, this is also a fact.
Narrative:
> "Fitch was looking unstoppable"
....
Fact:
> Okami had more ranked Ws than Fitch at the moment of the fight, had beat more former or eventual tittle contenders and had won more tittle eliminators himself (2008 and 2010)
> Okami's Ls included extremely or even controversial decision with top5ers Shields and Franklin. Fights not much different than Sanchez vs Fitch
> Okami didnt lose to an inferior caliber of fighter as Joslin.
> Okami was in a similar level than Fitch going by rankings, record vs top competition, odds, or any other objective measure you want to look at
Narrative:
> Okami was winning but the hype machine was over selling him...
...says the guy who sells Fitch as "unstoppable" despite being way less tested vs ranked competition and actually having less ranked wins. Watch the bias.
Diego Sanchez was looking great at that time in his career. He was using his wrestling effectively, had just got UDs over Nick Diaz, John Alessio, and Karo Parisyan, and a KO over Joe Riggs. Any of those guys would have been champions in lesser organizations. Also, Diego was 17-1 when he fought Fitch. So save the drama for your mama.
Jeff Joslin was game but he got his ass beat by Jon Fitch in their fight. It's not Fitch's fault that the ref paused the fight and started it back up. UFC ref's have been in that same situation and warned the fighter that if it paused, the fight would be forfeited. That's the ref's call, not the fighter. Your argument absolutely shit.
Jon Fitch was on a 16 fight win streak when he faced GSP. You're dumb.
Not even addressing Okami. He was good but overhyped. His biggest plug was beaing Anderson Silva by DQ.
I'm not giving "additional facts", I'm giving facts. You're trying to fabricate a narrative, and I'm calling you on it. You said he went 21-1-1 in 9 years, only losing to GSP. In reality, he went 24-4-1 with 1 NC in 9 years and 5 months, and only accumulated 3 top 10 wins along the way. He had ONE top 10 win when he faced GSP. One. Uno. Everything else he did is just padding. He hadn't even been a ranked fighter for a full year. He never won a title eliminator. He beat unranked Chris Wilson, who was making his UFC debut, to earn his title shot. Travis Fulton had a 40 fight win streak at one point. Was he the consensus #2 HW? Why not?
You get that both of those things are true at the same time, right? You’re free to make the argument that it should be measured differently, but that doesn’t mean the numbers I’m giving are incorrect; just that you think there’s a more effective way to measure it. That is to say the numbers you gave and the numbers I gave aren’t mutually exclusive.
Does that make more sense? Let me know if you still don’t understand and I’ll work through it differently for you.
Diego Sanchez was looking great at that time in his career. He was using his wrestling effectively, had just got UDs over Nick Diaz, John Alessio, and Karo Parisyan, and a KO over Joe Riggs. Any of those guys would have been champions in lesser organizations. Also, Diego was 17-1 when he fought Fitch. So save the drama for your mama.
Jeff Joslin was game but he got his ass beat by Jon Fitch in their fight. It's not Fitch's fault that the ref paused the fight and started it back up. UFC ref's have been in that same situation and warned the fighter that if it paused, the fight would be forfeited. That's the ref's call, not the fighter. Your argument absolutely shit.
Jon Fitch was on a 16 fight win streak when he faced GSP. You're dumb.
Not even addressing Okami. He was good but overhyped. His biggest plug was beaing Anderson Silva by DQ.
Right. I think Silva was more dominant because he did not allow Yushin to mount any sort of offense. I may be wrong by TS asked what win was more impressive, and I think an utter destruction + finish is more impressive than a long drawn fight.
GSP was fantastic vs Fitch, however I think Silva was even more impressive due to his overwhelming performance.
You get that both of those things are true at the same time, right? You’re free to make the argument that it should be measured differently, but that doesn’t mean the numbers I’m giving are incorrect; just that you think there’s a more effective way to measure it. That is to say the numbers you gave and the numbers I gave aren’t mutually exclusive.
Does that make more sense? Let me know if you still don’t understand and I’ll work through it differently for you.
I'm well aware of what you're doing. You're just trying to make it sound better than it actually was by being selective, so it fits your narrative. He had a streak of 21 fights with his only loss being to GSP. Your phrasing is intentionally misleading. So is your exclusion of context. Such as only 3 wins were top 10, one of which was a flash in the pan who was only (ever) ranked for 5 months or so. Omitting context like this reeks of bias. So does your refusal to acknowledge any of it. Carry on, playa.
I'm well aware of what you're doing. You're just trying to make it sound better than it actually was by being selective, so it fits your narrative. He had a streak of 21 fights with his only loss being to GSP. Your phrasing is intentionally misleading. So is your exclusion of context. Such as only 3 wins were top 10, one of which was a flash in the pan who was only (ever) ranked for 5 months or so. Omitting context like this reeks of bias. So does your refusal to acknowledge any of it. Carry on, playa.
Got it. Basically my counter argument to that would be that this feat is impressive in and of itself; competing at a high level in the premier org and getting that kind of run means something on its own. How many top ten wins he got I would categorize as another argument entirely.
I don’t know how many times I need to say that I’m not biased here, but apparently at least one more lol. I hold Silva in the highest possible regard, and there are a lot of arguments I see against his greatness that I do think are based on bias. Downplaying his win over Forrest, for instance, is a big one. Jumping on him popping hot in his 40s after breaking his leg is another.
I see the same sort of thing directed at GSP. Tapping to strikes, fighting “undersized” opponents, beating one dimensional fighters. I don’t think any of these types of arguments serve us well as fans of this sport. I’m of the mind that both should be celebrated for their greatness, and we need not tear down the other in order to do that. I’m making the most objective possible argument to support my position because that’s what I’m basing my position on; not the other way around. That would be bias.
We simply happen to disagree about the best methodology for this particular test, and hence disagree about the results.
Right. I think Silva was more dominant because he did not allow Yushin to mount any sort of offense. I may be wrong by TS asked what win was more impressive, and I think an utter destruction + finish is more impressive than a long drawn fight.
GSP was fantastic vs Fitch, however I think Silva was even more impressive due to his overwhelming performance.
Yup.
Okami had not been finished in his previous 30 pro fights, despite facing half a dozen ranked fighters along the way. He had not even getting close to get finished.
These fanboys discrediting Silva's win saying "Okami flap the minute he got hit with a good punch" is embarrassingly dishonest.
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