Which GOAT win was the best between these 2?

[Franklin U.]

Point proven. You can't grasp the difference between weight classes.

You bro- I dont know why u have my moniker under GSP.
I didnt choose either. I'm Switzerland ,here.

 

[Fioretti]

The fact is WW was and is a tougher division. Okami, while a legit contender, was not on the same level as Fitch. GSP's performance against Fitch remains once of the most dominant performances in UFC title history

I agree that at the time of each fighters' title shot, they were not on the same level. Fitch had only 1 top 10 win when he fought for the title. Okami had 4. While GSP's performance against Fitch was very dominant, indeed, it in no way can possibly be more dominant than a 7 minute flawless KO victory. It can't be. If you believe so, you do not fully understand what dominance or dominating is. Silva ended his fight, the clock ended GSP's.

Its absolutely an argument. The poll in the OP shows people value GSP's win more, probably because people realize Fitch was a much more valuable win. Okami was a good contender, but Fitch is basically on the same level as Joe B, Yoel Romero, etc. Guys who were as good as it gets but never won a title.

How was Fitch more valuable? Their stats were very similar, but Okami had 4x the top 10 wins than Fitch had, and was a top 10 fighter himself for years before actually getting a shot at Silva. Fitch earned his top 10 spot with a split decision over Sanchez, less than a year before his title shot. Where's the value in Fitch? Where is it coming from? How does 1/4th of the top 10 victories and less than 1 year being ranked make him so much more valuable than Yushin Okami? Please elaborate. The online popularity polls are not proof of anything. Please don't try to use that as an argument.

I hope you realize that Jon Fitch only has 4 top 10 wins in his entire 43 fight career, and his "value" is drastically exaggerated by fanatical GSP bois. If you don't realize that yet, I will help you.

 

[Fioretti]

Oh sure, a wash is when two things effectively cancel each other out. I’m saying I see them as equal because I understand the argument for either being greater.

If it makes you feel better about Swick I’d probably give him more value if he had been at lhw and come down to mw rather than going to ww.

I really don’t think it’s stat nitpicking to note that one guy went 9 years and 19 fights with only 1 loss, and that loss being to the division goat. I think it speaks to his dominance of nothing else, even if he doesn’t have a strong signature win (although I’d argue his 2 wins over Alves were extremely meaningful when they happened)

I really don’t have a bias. Silva was spectacular to watch, I don’t believe in trying to tear someone down just to build someone else up. Not my style.

Your stats aren't exactly accurate. Fitch was 19-2 with 1 NC going into the title fight with GSP, and had only 1 top 10 win along the way. Context matters. He was 19-3-1 NC after losing to GSP, not 19-1. Don't forget his fight with Joslin (which has been mentioned numerous times) and all the fuckery that was involved there. I posted their stats numerous times in this thread, a while back, but I'll do it again if you guys aren't too familiar. Bottom line: Fitch had 1 top 10 win and wasn't even ranked himself for a full year yet when he fought for the title. Okami had been ranked for over 4 years, won 2 title eliminators, had 4 top 10 wins, and was 27-5. Okami had been finished in only 20% of his losses, while Fitch was finished in 100% of his losses. Okami had experience and success in three different weight classes. Fitch had one fight at MW, the rest at WW.

All the "value" seen in Fitch is revisionist bullshit. People parroting what they've heard or what they've been told.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Your stats aren't exactly accurate. Fitch was 19-2 with 1 NC going into the title fight with GSP, and had only 1 top 10 win along the way. Context matters. He was 19-3-1 NC after losing to GSP, not 19-1. Don't forget his fight with Joslin (which has been mentioned numerous times) and all the fuckery that was involved there. I posted their stats numerous times in this thread, a while back, but I'll do it again if you guys aren't too familiar. Bottom line: Fitch had 1 top 10 win and wasn't even ranked himself for a full year yet when he fought for the title. Okami had been ranked for over 4 years, won 2 title eliminators, had 4 top 10 wins, and was 27-5. Okami had been finished in only 20% of his losses, while Fitch was finished in 100% of his losses. Okami had experience and success in three different weight classes. Fitch had one fight at MW, the rest at WW.

All the "value" seen in Fitch is revisionist bullshit. People parroting what they've heard or what they've been told.

I think you misunderstood; that 9 year period is 2002-2011, where he only lost to GSP. You are correct, there are 2 nc in there.

So yes, factually the stats I gave were accurate.

 

[Mike]

Gsp. You guys saying finishes are all that matters always forget to add to YOU they're all that matters. Not everyone agrees with you.

 

[Adamant]

GSP. It wasnt just a mauling. It was an annihilation. And Fitch was legit too. Not some bum.

 

[Mike]

Silva fans marked in yet another poll. I'm sure they'll go with their usual narrative that polls don't matter and sherdog fans aren't "real" mma fans. Oddly enough years ago when sherdog favored andy more, you never heard them say stuff like that.

 

[HavokHarmon]

That's a biased, unfair way of discredtiting Okami's accomplishments once again mate c'mon

> On the one hand, Okami earning a tittle shot for being 7-1 in UFC or beating Muñoz and Marquardt is, according to you, "less meaningful when you only get there as a product of the top guys losing and either moving to the back of the line or leaving the division entirely."

Well that's false in the first place. It could be right applied to Patrick Coté, or maybe Dan Hardy, but not a guy who remains at the top for almost a decade, a guy who was notoriously denied a title shot for a long time for not being a draw, and that actually proved he belongs in the elite at MW and at WW too (didnt the Shields fight happened at WW, according to you?)

> On the other hand, Fitch was 8-0 in UFC and got his tittle shot off a win over UFC new comer Wilsson, his best win until that time being #5 Sanchez by SD.

Yet I dont read you nothing about "is less meaningful". None of that shit in this case even though Fitch barely beat anybody in his way to the tittle shot better than Okami's wins...

In this case you dont take into account that Shields leaving the division, or other dudes fighting in other promotions, or guys as Maia waiting a couple more years to move down (and dominating Fitch right away)...played a role on Fitch getting a tittle shot despite nlacking of "big" wins. Here I dont read you the same arguments you used to downplay accomplishments as "less meaningful" in your book.

You only get picky when it comes to Okami and MW. You even give full-credit to Fitch stats that involve gross referee mistakes.

That's called BIAS my friend, and pretty blatant at that.



Okami
Marquardt
Muñoz
Lombard
Belcher
Swick
J. McDonald
Tanner
....plus Shieds controversial decision

Fitch
Alves
Sanchez
Burkman?
Pierce
Paulo Thiago
Erick Silva
Gono
....plus BJ controversial decision

The bar is pretty on par. Only through big amounts of bias and nitpicking you can try to present one list as much superior than the other.



You pretrending that Kos is a much more legitimate contender than Okami solely around the fact that he beat a way over the hill Hughes, is, again, pretty dishonest.

The list of guys who beat over the hill legends is pretty long, but you need to understand context. I would even say Pele Landi beat a better version of Hughes yet I dont read you claiming he is a supperior opponent.

Okami was not been finished by guys as Paulo Thiago in his way to his tittle shots as Kos did btw. If he was losing, it was to top5 competition in extremely close decs.



Why it makes it a less quality win in this comparison?

Do you discredit Burns or Colbi for being rather light WWs? Are they less "meaninful" for Usman?
Did you used the same logic for Jon's win over Sanchez? Of course you didnt xD

The in-cage weight difference between Okami-Silva and GSP-Fitch was very similar.

Silva, in case you are not aware, is not a big MW neither. He is a smaller MW than GSP is a WW.
Silva is a former top ranked WW who weighted in at 195lbs for a LHW bout with Daniel Cormier.

Back in the day, it wasnt so uncommon that fighters avoided big weightcuts. Otherwise, Fitch would have had a way harder time to get his tittle shot off Chris Wilsson having guys as Maia, Marquardt, Kampman or Lawler in the same pool, although I know that you only take this into account when it comes to discredit or downplay Okami/Silva in ths discussion as "less meaningful". For Kos, Fitch or Alves and the state of the WW division n UFC at the time there is no nitpicking on your part.



I dont assume its dishonest on purpose. But you are certainly using different measuring sticks in this discussion.

This is a lot so I’m going to let you know that I can’t add in the quotes very consistently due to my connection. I usually end up typing my reply in my notes and then pasting it to a reply because I have real issues typing long messages without them getting wiped. All that is to say, I won’t be quoting which I apologize for but I’m hoping you’ll still be able to follow my rebuttals to your various points.

1) No not quite. Getting a shot is less meaningful in a cleaned out division, that part I think is accurate. His wins over Nate and Muñoz are solid wins, absolutely. I just think Nates rating was especially inflated at the time, but it’s definitely a solid win.

2) Fitch got his shot not off of a signature win but off a great body of work. He didn’t get it specifically for beating Wilson; he got it for accumulating the (at the time) 2nd longest win streak in the UFC since it’s inception. Just like I’m not giving him credit specifically for the Joslin win, at the same time I’m not denying credit for his run.

3) You keep talking about Shields oscillating between ww and mw around that time but that strikes me as an absolute non sequitur. He was pretty far outside of the UFC ranking paradigm at that time and as such had basically no influence on it. The best version of that argument that I can come up with would be that his total absence from the UFC should be taken into account as a top tier fighter because it led to the artificial inflation of the rankings of others, which is actually an interesting point but meanders pretty far into the realm of the unknowable. With Okami we saw how he fared against top guys like Sonnen and Franklin around that time. He lost. Had Shields been in the UFC and departed either for another org or a different division I would agree with you completely but given that he just wasn’t there to begin with that feels like a level of speculation I’m not comfortable entertaining.

3) I feel like I’ve explained the internal logic of my conclusions pretty well, and the fact that, were I to consider any of your offerings to be apt analogs then I would agree with you. It isn’t a matter of bias; at base, I simply don’t agree with you about a variety of these things being analogous.

4) I’m not discrediting Okami for being a light mw; I’m arguing a couple of things when we talk about that
a) I’m arguing that his being small as a justification for his losses to bigger mws doesn’t help the argument that he was a more valuable win, and
b) His wins (or losses in this case) at ww don’t get full credit for his mw resume. I hope that helps clear up any confusion.

5) Burns got his shot at the ww belt for his accomplishments at that class. He didn’t need to rely on lw fights in order to secure his place as a contender. He beat a former champ of that class in Woodley, so I reject your comparison. Colby is in a similar boat, so I reject that comparison as well.

6) I agree that Silva wasn’t a huge mw. The difference is that he had staggering success at mw. He doesn’t need to rely on the size argument to establish his greatness.

In any case, no, I’m using the same measuring stick for both of them. I have no strong predisposition one way or the other, we just seem to disagree on the way these things ought to be measured.

 

[TheNinja]

GSP over Fitch easily. No offense to Okami, but Fitch was a major force for many, many years. He won something like 15 or 16 fights ina row before GSP thoroughly dominated him, and then won another five in a row.

And hell, Fitch beat Okami.

This. Fitch would very likely have been champ for a while without GSP there. Okami.....maybe he wins the belt but doesn't defend it long if at all.

 

[Mike]

This. Fitch would very likely have been champ for a while without GSP there. Okami.....maybe he wins the belt but doesn't defend it long if at all.

Back at that time okami certainly wasn't seen as the consensus #2 mw, the way Fitch was at ww.

 

[TheNinja]

Back at that time okami certainly wasn seen as the consensus #2 mw, the way Fitch was at ww.

He lost to Chael a few years before his title fight and I think he would have lost to Rich again. If I remember right Rich had left MW after losing to Anderson 2x. It's impossible to know of course. But I remember Fitch not losing for like 3-4 years before facing GSP.

In any case Okami did earn the shot beating Munoz and MArquardt. I just think GSP's was more impressive. Can't really get that mad if peopel vote anderson though.

 

[Fioretti]

I think you misunderstood; that 9 year period is 2002-2011, where he only lost to GSP. You are correct, there are 2 nc in there.

So yes, factually the stats I gave were accurate.

Fitch was 24-4-1 and 1 NC over 30 fights from 2002-2011. He has 4 official losses, a draw, a NC, and the whole fuckery of the Joslin fight. Your stats are not accurate.

 

[Fioretti]

Back at that time okami certainly wasn't seen as the consensus #2 mw, the way Fitch was at ww.

Fitch was the consensus #2 when he fought GSP for the title? How? He had 1 top 10 win (SD over Diego) and wasn't event ranked in the top 10 for a year yet. Okami had been top 5 for years when he fought Silva for the title, and top 10 for at least 4 years.

Revisionist delusions, my dude.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Fitch was 24-4-1 and 1 NC over 30 fights from 2002-2011. He has 4 official losses, a draw, a NC, and the whole fuckery of the Joslin fight. Your stats are not accurate.

You’re not understanding. I was giving his record during that time frame. Not overall. Hope that clears it up.

EDIT: Actually you’re right, he won 21 fights during that time. Not 19. My bad. I downplayed his record.

So between Dec 2002 and Dec 2011 Fitch won 21 fights and only lost to GSP. And yes, you’re right, he had a nc during that period. I didn’t give his record in a format which would include that figure, so while that point in no way renders my stats inaccurate, I’ll give it now in order to avoid any further confusion: during the aforementioned 9 year run Jon Fitch went 21-1-1 with his only loss to GSP and a nc to Hutchinson.

 

[Topher]

Didn’t read all this but I feel this is flawed.

Fitch (along with Shields) is arguably GSP’s best win.

Okami is more a mediocre win. It would be like comparing the Franklin or Hendo wins to one of GSP’s mediocre opponents.

So this is designed to be GSP biased based on opposition quality.

Fitch was like Big Nog, Rashad Evan’s or Dustin Porier a clear long term #1 contender that beat everyone but the champ for many many years.

 

[pankrat]

This is a lot so I’m going to let you know that I can’t add in the quotes very consistently due to my connection. I usually end up typing my reply in my notes and then pasting it to a reply because I have real issues typing long messages without them getting wiped. All that is to say, I won’t be quoting which I apologize for but I’m hoping you’ll still be able to follow my rebuttals to your various points.

1) No not quite. Getting a shot is less meaningful in a cleaned out division, that part I think is accurate. His wins over Nate and Muñoz are solid wins, absolutely. I just think Nates rating was especially inflated at the time, but it’s definitely a solid win.

2) Fitch got his shot not off of a signature win but off a great body of work. He didn’t get it specifically for beating Wilson; he got it for accumulating the (at the time) 2nd longest win streak in the UFC since it’s inception. Just like I’m not giving him credit specifically for the Joslin win, at the same time I’m not denying credit for his run.

3) You keep talking about Shields oscillating between ww and mw around that time but that strikes me as an absolute non sequitur. He was pretty far outside of the UFC ranking paradigm at that time and as such had basically no influence on it. The best version of that argument that I can come up with would be that his total absence from the UFC should be taken into account as a top tier fighter because it led to the artificial inflation of the rankings of others, which is actually an interesting point but meanders pretty far into the realm of the unknowable. With Okami we saw how he fared against top guys like Sonnen and Franklin around that time. He lost. Had Shields been in the UFC and departed either for another org or a different division I would agree with you completely but given that he just wasn’t there to begin with that feels like a level of speculation I’m not comfortable entertaining.

4) I feel like I’ve explained the internal logic of my conclusions pretty well, and the fact that, were I to consider any of your offerings to be apt analogs then I would agree with you. It isn’t a matter of bias; at base, I simply don’t agree with you about a variety of these things being analogous.

5) I’m not discrediting Okami for being a light mw; I’m arguing a couple of things when we talk about that
a) I’m arguing that his being small as a justification for his losses to bigger mws doesn’t help the argument that he was a more valuable win, and
b) His wins (or losses in this case) at ww don’t get full credit for his mw resume. I hope that helps clear up any confusion.

6) Burns got his shot at the ww belt for his accomplishments at that class. He didn’t need to rely on lw fights in order to secure his place as a contender. He beat a former champ of that class in Woodley, so I reject your comparison. Colby is in a similar boat, so I reject that comparison as well.

7) I agree that Silva wasn’t a huge mw. The difference is that he had staggering success at mw. He doesn’t need to rely on the size argument to establish his greatness.

In any case, no, I’m using the same measuring stick for both of them. I have no strong predisposition one way or the other, we just seem to disagree on the way these things ought to be measured.

I appreciate it.
I do my best with the help of google translator so I probably dont word some thoughts correctly but I hope you get the meaning.

1) It's not accurate because it's a prejudiced generalization that doesn't apply to Okami's case. And there is where I call the bias.

2)
Fitch's body of work was 13-3-1 (8-0 in UFC)

Okami's body of work was 27-5 (10-2 in UFC).

>Okami had more ranked wins than Fich.
>Okami's number of Ls included flip coin decisions with top5 caliber competition in Shields and Franklin and a hometown robbery vs Falaniko Vitale, who was top10 ranked at the time with recent wins over Lindland and Menne.
>Fitch got submitted by unranked Joslin.

You call one "a great body of work" for a tittle shot, while the other one seems to you underserving or "less meaningful". That's where I call bias once again

You dont support it with nothing but...numbers. You dont care - you actually refuse to address the quality of competition behind those numbers, if those numbers hide a referee mistake or a great fight to a flip coin decision with a ranked opponent.
You just stand behind a number (maybe you dress it as "accumulation")

Well, then I dont call bias, I call it dumb - which I dont think you are - or rather dishonest.

3) I just asked for your take on Okami vs Shields and Franklin. What you saw there. But I only got cold stats.

Well, related to the previous point, yes I watched those fights, I absolutely believe those fights credited that Okami belong to the elite at the time. Period.
I also know what I watched when I watched Fitch vs Joslin

In your book, it is just one W and two L.
To each his own, I guess

4) Pretty vague but it's cool.

5) I just tried to make clear that weight discrepancy doesnt hurt or favour either win here. Simple as that. Not sure what else you were arguing in this point, honestly.

6) Okami fought Jake Shields at 175lbs, both weighting in the cage at a similar weight than they used to do. Shields went to become MW champ and beat Dan Henderson (in earlier posts, I read you talking about how a win or a loss aged should be taken into account....not here, surprise).

Well, you act like that fight not ontly means nothing, it actually discredit Okami as a legit opponent..
> Fitch's "W" over Joslin is more positive in the way you refflect both in your argumentary. Literally. Yes, as *** as it sounds.
Belfort got his shot to Jones off Rumble Johnson. That fight is pretty much meaningless by your logic.

7) Yup

 

[pankrat]

Didn’t read all this but I feel this is flawed.

Fitch (along with Shields) is arguably GSP’s best win.

Okami is more a mediocre win. It would be like comparing the Franklin or Hendo wins to one of GSP’s mediocre opponents.

So this is designed to be GSP biased based on opposition quality.

Fitch was like Big Nog, Rashad Evan’s or Dustin Porier a clear long term #1 contender that beat everyone but the champ for many many years.

You have no clue what you are talking about. In 40 pages of thread the matter has been discussed enough that I can assure even GSP fanboys would recognize a monumental white belt in your post

 

[pankrat]

GSP. It wasnt just a mauling. It was an annihilation. And Fitch was legit too. Not some bum.

1. We are comparing it with an actual clean stoppage. Doesnt matter how much you hype it up, a decision is not more of an anhilitaion than actually forcing the referee to save a man's life.

2. Okami wasnt a bum neither

 

[zinzam]

Okami wasn't that good. History tells that story. Fitch was a bore, but a capable one. Basically yawn, who cares?

Im having a debate with @pankrat and we would like to know sherdog's opinion.

Please mods add a poll.

Which was the best win :

1. Silva's win against Okami (tko round 2)
Okami was ranked number 2 MW in some medias at the time, stayed at that spot for about 2-3 months. He was on a 3 fights win streak at the time. He also lost his very next fight against Boetsh then went 3-1 before moving to the minor leagues.

2. GSP's win against Fitch (UD 50-43, 50-44, 50-43)
Fitch was ranked number 2 WW in all mma medias at the time and stayed at that spot for around 3 years. He was also ranked top 10 p4p in some mma medias. He was on a 16 fights winning streak at the time. After the fight, he went 5-0-1 before losing to Hendricks.

RESULTS up to page 18 :

Okami
-----
Pankrat
TheMessiah
bjpenngoat
killakillakilla
cade187
youguysneverfought
GIBLERTBAPTISTA
laleggenda27
Fioretti
Baba Ghanoush
Noraaq



Fitch
-----
ThunderStruck
IngaVovchanchyn
IloveTHIS
SaigeVanZant
PokerandMMA
Koro_11
MRT
TankAbbott4Eva
dog y
dildos
D'z
Doctor Stoppage
acannxr
Death By Samson
AbominableJoman
bambammccoy
HHJ
sabretitan
ExitLUPin
TriangleMonkey
Jonesisinnocent
TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle
tehMoose
91 seconds
Franklin U.
SKITZADACTYL
countswagula
fortheo
MCS
Oceanmachine
Lee_
Juzie
Local Plata
Gambit MMA
ch1584
Khabib Khanate
ImLovinIt
Fesaine
knock_you_out
mirko>anyone
ferrisjso
Muaythaibrit
The-AxeMurderer
NoBiasJustMMA
Volador
CashMoney1991
jsbx45

Didnt clearly state their opinions
----------------------------------
Reign009 (Seems to be on Okami's side)
capnlarge (Seems to be on Fitch side)
jojoRed (Seems to be on Fitch side)
Bouboumaster (Seems to be on Fitch side)
TankAbbott4Eva (Seems to be on Fitch side)
pick999
gono btw (Seems to be on Okami's side)
RogerD
EYEKICKFACES
Bend NvR Break (Seems to be on Okami's side)
GoofMaster93
moreorless87
Candy Routure (says its a tie)
SuperNerd
TempleoftheDog
chardog (says its a tie)
TheAmericanGazelle
Barteh (undecided)
Thepaintbucket
mjfan23
Typrune Goatley
OverhandRightKayo

 

[pankrat]

Okami wasn't that good. History tells that story. Fitch was a bore, but a capable one. Basically yawn, who cares?

Friend, you have not even 1000 posts in 15 years in this forum...and one of those is this one. Yawing or not, it seems you care enough

Okami was a similar caliber of opponent Fitch was at the time they fought for the tittle. According to rankings, record, performances vs top comeptition, odds, or just about any objective measure you want to look at. Yawn.