Which GOAT win was the best between these 2?

[pankrat]

Nate was only the #2 guy because guys like Hendo and Ace had already gotten bumped off by Silva. Had it not been for Silva I could see Franklin, Hendo and Belfort all splitting time as champions. I don’t see any of those 3 losing to the next tier, imo that being Nate and Okami.

- Why is Nate less legitimate as #2 than, for example, Koscheck, Alves or Fittch himself? Do you say he was an inferior fighter, an easier opponent than those? Why?

Marquardt was sparring partner of GSP among many others top fighters, received very high praise from everyone in the MMA community.
Nate KFTO Kampmann (who got Shields his tittle shot in a close decision), KTFO Maia, who went to became long time WW contender and outclassed Fitch, KTFO Woodley, long time UFC WW champion.....

There is a pattern with you, where you disregard skill/accomplishments as long as it takes place at 185...yet if it happened at 170...full-credit. Let alone if it ended vs GSP lol.


- You just mentioned Burkman as a legit win for Fitch.....now you call Swick a journeyman, who actually beat Burkman. This time you didnt hide your bias my friend, even if it was way evident by this point, as exposed in the previous post.

Fitch would be the first to correct you in that tag you put on Swick btw. Him, Swick and Koscheck were main sparring partners of each other for a reason. A journeyman doesnt go 9-1 in UFC. Not beat Burkman

- Did you watch Okami vs Franklin? Whats your impression? Do you acknowledge any evolition from Yushin from that point where he was 25?
Then tell me why you dont find plausible at all for Okami to get the better of Rich.

 

[ThunderStruck]

- Why is Nate less legitimate as #2 than, for example, Koscheck, Alves or Fittch himself? Do you say he was an inferior fighter, an easier opponent than those? Why?.

Why wasn't Nate ranked top 10 p4p like Fitch and Alves? Surely the ones making the rankings totally forgot about him right?

 

[ThunderStruck]

- You just mentioned Burkman as a legit win for Fitch.....now you call Swick a journeyman, who actually beat Burkman. This time you didnt hide your bias my friend, even if it was way evident by this point, as exposed in the previous post.
.

MW vs WW. Would Okami beat Swick if they were the same size?

 

[pankrat]

Sure thing, so basically I’m just acknowledging that we have the luxury of analyzing a fighters wins retrospectively. Alves for instance was fighting for the belt within a couple years, so although not highly ranked when Fitch met him, with the power of hindsight we can see that win is more valuable than it appeared at the time.

Two differences:
1) Fitch fought Sanchez at the weight class he fought for the title. Okami fought Shields a division down
2) Fitch actually won his fight. Okami did not.

That’s correct, I see no connection between Fitch being on a 16 fight win streak and Okami being hard to beat a weight class down.

And that’s fine, it was called a welterweight tournament but we can go with that. I still don’t see a near win as having as much value as a 16 fight win streak.

It’s not that it doesn’t count. It just counts for less, especially given that he lost.

You come back with that, dude?

Did you actually watched Okami vs Shields or not?. Let0s compare Okami's 16 run of fights with that Fitch's 16 run of fight. Let's see which one is more legitimate.

Why do you ignore the Joslin fight? While using the 16 "winning" streak for the 4th time despite knowing is a rigged number, it's not legit. Why you dont even hide the bias here?

Okami had more than 16 wins in his way to the tittle shot. If there wasnt in a row was because he lost to top5 competition in exremely close decisions. You ignore that while at the same time you give credit to the number 16 even knowing it would be 8 if not for one of the biggest refereee mistakes in the history of the sport. Why you do this?

Why bringing Burmak as a legit W while at the same time discrediting Swick as a journeyman?

And so on...
Why friend? haha

 

[pankrat]

MW vs WW. Would Okami beat Swick if they were the same size?

What are you asking exactly?

 

[HavokHarmon]

- Why is Nate less legitimate as #2 than, for example, Koscheck, Alves or Fittch himself? Do you say he was an inferior fighter, an easier opponent than those? Why?

Marquardt was sparring partner of GSP among many others top fighters, received very high praise from everyone in the MMA community.
Nate KFTO Kampmann (who got Shields his tittle shot in a close decision), KTFO Maia, who went to became long time WW contender and outclassed Fitch, KTFO Woodley, long time UFC WW champion.....

There is a pattern with you, where you disregard skill/accomplishments as long as it takes place at 185...yet if it happened at 170...full-credit. Let alone if it ended vs GSP lol.


- You just mentioned Burkman as a legit win for Fitch.....now you call Swick a journeyman, who actually beat Burkman. This time you didnt hide your bias my friend, even if it was way evident by this point, as exposed in the previous post.

Fitch would be the first to correct you in that tag you put on Swick btw. Him, Swick and Koscheck were main sparring partners of each other for a reason. A journeyman doesnt go 9-1 in UFC. Not beat Burkman

- Did you watch Okami vs Franklin? Whats your impression? Do you acknowledge any evolition from Yushin from that point where he was 25?
Then tell me why you dont find plausible at all for Okami to get the better of Rich.

I take your point about ww vs mw, but I mean...yeah. I am assigning less weight to wins Okami had at ww than I one Fitch had at ww because Okami got his shot at mw, whereas Fitch got his shot at ww.

So...yeah? Fitch gets full credit for wins in his own division, Okami gets partial credit for wins a division down, and even less when he lost those fights.

It seems like you’re trying to compare Fitch and Okami directly, and basically for the purposes of determining what value they held as wins I’m saying that’s the wrong approach.

If it makes you feel any better I’d do the same thing if Fitch had near wins against big names at lw.

 

[HavokHarmon]

You come back with that, dude?

Did you actually watched Okami vs Shields or not?. Let0s compare Okami's 16 run of fights with that Fitch's 16 run of fight. Let's see which one is more legitimate.

Why do you ignore the Joslin fight? While using the 16 "winning" streak for the 4th time despite knowing is a rigged number, it's not legit. Why you dont even hide the bias here?

Okami had more than 16 wins in his way to the tittle shot. If there wasnt in a row was because he lost to top5 competition in exremely close decisions. You ignore that while at the same time you give credit to the number 16 even knowing it would be 8 if not for one of the biggest refereee mistakes in the history of the sport. Why you do this?

Why bringing Burmak as a legit W while at the same time discrediting Swick as a journeyman?

And so on...
Why friend? haha

You seem really upset that I’m not assigning weight to the Joslin fight. The answer as to why is going to be unsatisfying, but here goes; Fitch won. The ref screwed up, yeah, but at the end of the day Fitch got the win. So I’m calling it a 16 fight win streak because...well that’s what happens when a guy wins 16 fights in a row.

And yes, being in a row matters. It isn’t the end all be all, but current goat standards have pretty well established uninterrupted longevity as a fundamental part of the criteria. I don’t see why that should be any different here.

 

[pankrat]

I take your point about ww vs mw, but I mean...yeah. I am assigning less weight to wins Okami had at ww than I one Fitch had at ww because Okami got his shot at mw, whereas Fitch got his shot at ww.

So...yeah? Fitch gets full credit for wins in his own division, Okami gets partial credit for wins a division down, and even less when he lost those fights.

It seems like you’re trying to compare Fitch and Okami directly, and basically for the purposes of determining what value they held as wins I’m saying that’s the wrong approach.

If it makes you feel any better I’d do the same thing if Fitch had near wins against big names at lw.

The same way you get purist with on-paper facts as highly controversial decisions of striaght up referee mistakes, or nª of wins in a row...why you change your phylosophy when calling Shields vs Okami for what it was: a MW bout?

Im trying to gauge Fitch and Okami caliber of opponents, by acknowleding how they did vs legit competition. I support that they wrere very comparable, neither had a clear edge over the other.

Im trying to bring criterias that attest for quality, like nº of ranked wins or performances vs top competition.
You disregard them while sticking to on-paper facts and repeating until 5 times a16 "winning streak" when even you know the number is rigged.
Okami was in a 22 winning streak if not for HIGHLY controversial decisions.

In short: you put more value on a "W" by gross referee mistake than a "L" by controverial, split, judges decision.

Because, as "unsatisfying" as it sounds... "Fitch won", you say.

...btw, dont tell me you didnt showed your colors with the Burman/Swick treatment friend haha

At this point, I give it to you, thanks for the time.

 

[HavokHarmon]

The same way you get purist with on-paper facts as highly controversial decisions of striaght up referee mistakes, or nª of wins in a row...why you change your phylosophy when calling Shields vs Okami for what it was: a MW bout?

Im trying to gauge Fitch and Okami caliber of opponents, by acknowleding how they did vs legit competition. ITo support that they wrere very comparable. neither had a clear edge over the tother.

Im trying to take criterias that attest for quality, like nº of ranked wins or performances vs top competition. You disregard that them sticking to on-paper fact and repeating until 5 times that 16 "winning streak" even when you know that number is rigged.
Okami was in a 22 winning streak if not for HIGHLY controversial decisions.

In short: you put more value on a "W" by gross referee mistake than a "L" by controverial, split, judges decision.

Because, as "unsatisfying" as it sounds... "Fitch won", you say.
At this point, I give it to you, thanks for the time.

I get it, we’re comparing them, but not based on common opponents. We’re not talking about who would win in their primes; we’re gauging the value of wins over them at their respective weight classes, which are different.

So for instance Okami gets less credit for Swick because his best performances were at ww, while Okami was at mw. Fitch gets full credit for high caliber ww opponents because that’s where they competed, and that’s where he got his shot.

As for the weight class piece, I take your point. I do think it bears mentioning that this event occurred at a time when other organizations had different weight class requirements, which admittedly muddies the waters. But
1) It was a tournament primarily of welterweights
2) It was called a ww tournament
3) It was much closer to the ww limit than the mw limit
4) It primarily effected ww rankings

But I can follow you on that, we can say that Okami lost to Shields at mw, but that doesn’t really mean much.

It’s all pretty internally consistent, although it may not align with your predispositions.

 

[cmw43]

Fitch was on the receiving end of one of the worst prolonged beatdowns I'd seen in a title fight.

GSP was amazed he wouldn't stay down, said he was like the terminator.

Fitch was a warrior.

 

[cmw43]

Okami had more and higher ranked wins than Fitch, whose only ranked win coming off to his tittle shot was #5 Sanchez by SD.

Yet you say Okami "wasnt even considered the second best" while Fitch yes, "easily."

It's impressive how much GSP fanboys dishonestly change the narrative.

Fitch has been fighting tough guys and was 19-2 on an 8 fight win streak in the UFC.

This was the longest streak to a title shot ever in UFC history at the time.

He even went on to beat Okami himself. Who do you think was a tougher fight in the WW division at the time than Fitch?

 

[pankrat]

I get it, we’re comparing them, but not based on common opponents. We’re not talking about who would win in their primes; we’re gauging the value of wins over them at their respective weight classes, which are different.

So for instance Okami gets less credit for Swick because his best performances were at ww, while Okami was at mw. Fitch gets full credit for high caliber ww opponents because that’s where they competed, and that’s where he got his shot.

As for the weight class piece, I take your point. I do think it bears mentioning that this event occurred at a time when other organizations had different weight class requirements, which admittedly muddies the waters. But
1) It was a tournament primarily of welterweights
2) It was called a ww tournament
3) It was much closer to the ww limit than the mw limit
4) It primarily effected ww rankings

But I can follow you on that, we can say that Okami lost to Shields at mw, but that doesn’t really mean much.

It’s all pretty internally consistent, although it may not align with your predispositions.

Biased or not, you can put toguether an argument, which is more than most in this thread who shared your stance.
Following your last sentence, then I will ask you for coherence:

Didnt Diego Sanchez fought at FW, and actually got his shot at LW?

There is just no way, where you can give full-credit to Fitch wins over Sanchez by SD, acknowledge it as one of his best wins, while at the same time acting like Okami vs Shields doesnt hold any weight as if it didnt even happened. Thats not internally not externally consistent.

I get your point that it's not about a H2H math up since they were in different weight class. We are trying to rate them p4p, right?

It's ok but let's put some context. Okami - despite sherdog memes - was not a big MW, used to step into the cage at around 190-195 and fought almost half of his career at WW, at his 20s and at his 30s.

Most of Okami's best wins were over WW-MWs, just like him, as Swick, Marquardt, Lombard...or Shields.
Muñoz, Franklin, Belcher or Jason McDonald were legit 200+ lbers.

Still, I'd agree that if either of them was to be called the superior fighter p4p, that's Fitch. But it's by a slight, very subjective marring, who in no way justify saying that taking your opponent to a decision is superior to outclass and finish him inside 7 minuts.

Let me ask you, among GSP's best wins...Who are behind Fitch in your book?

 

[pankrat]

Fitch has been fighting tough guys and was 19-2 on an 8 fight win streak in the UFC.

I agree on that.
Guess what? Okami had been fighting tough guys and was in a 25-4 run, including among those 4 a gross hometown robbery vs top10 ranked at the time Vitale, a majority decision over top5 ranked Shields, and another very close dec with top5 Franklin.
More ranked wins for Okami among those 25 than for Fitch among those 19, which included one of the biggest referee mistakes in the history of the sport vs unranked Joslin, who submitted Fitch in that fight.

These are all straight facts, feel free to check them.

Im not denying Fitch's accomplishments. It's some of you who just discredit Yushin's.
I say they were very comparable caliber of opponent, and it's the difference in quality of performance (stoppage vs judges) what it's more differential in this particular discussion

This was the longest streak to a title shot ever in UFC history at the time.

There are enough arguments to be made for Fitch other than a void stat. The fact Fitch fought UFC debutant Wilsson before his tittle shot is pretty telling about the substance behind your stat.
Okami was 10-2 in UFC coming into the tittle shot btw.

He even went on to beat Okami himself.

Please mate, let's keep it honest.

- First of all, Fitch popping for PEDs that same year:
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2015...-wsof-16-drug-test-faces-fines-and-suspension

- Secondly, pretty telling about how they were regarded in their primes that despite the news in the link above, despite Fitch looking as shredded as ever in his late 30s, despite Okami moving down to WW fo the first time in 8 years and badly in the decline with 3 losses in his last 6.....Yushin was favoured by odds coming into the fight:

https://www.bestfightodds.com/events/wsof-24-fitch-vs-okami-998

Who do you think was a tougher fight in the WW division at the time than Fitch?

You mean in UFC WW roster or just active fighters who could challenge Fitch at 170 at the time?

How many do you think were a tougher fight than Okami?

 

[HavokHarmon]

Biased or not, you can put toguether an argument, which is more than most in this thread who shared your stance.
Following your last sentence, then I will ask you for coherence:

Didnt Diego Sanchez fought at FW, and actually got his shot at LW?

There is just no way, where you can give full-credit to Fitch wins over Sanchez by SD, acknowledge it as one of his best wins, while at the same time acting like Okami vs Shields doesnt hold any weight as if it didnt even happened. Thats not internally not externally consistent.

I get your point that it's not about a H2H comparison since they were in different weight class. We are trying to rate them p4p, right?

It's ok but let's put some context. Okami - despite sherdog memes - was not a big MW, used to step into the cage at around 190-195 and fought almost half of his career at WW, at his 20s and at his 30s.

Most of Okami's best wins were over WW-MWs, just like him, as Swick, Marquardt, Lombard...or Shields.
Muñoz, Franklin, Belcher or Jason McDonald were legit 200+ lbers.

Still, I'd agree that if either of them was to be called the superior fighter p4p, that's Fitch. But it's by a slight, very subjective marring, who in no way justify saying that taking your opponent to a decision is superior to outclass and finish him inside 7 minuts.

Let me ask you, among GSP's best wins...Who are behind Fitch in your book?

Diego got a shot at the lw title based on wins at lw and ww. He went to fw later.

Generally guys get more credit for wins in higher divisions, credit for wins in their own division, and less for wins a division down.

If it makes you feel better I’d be giving Okami credit for Shields if he had won the fight. Losing close fights only helps if you can eventually get those big wins, losing consistently in those situations renders you a gatekeeper.

If I’m ranking GSPs wins they go like this:
Tier 1) Hughes, Fitch, Kos, Shields

Tier 2) Alves, Penn, Sherk, Trigg, Condit, Diaz, Bisping

Tier 3) Hardy, Karo, Mayhem, Serra

Tier 4) Basically everyone else

For Silva I would rank them as follows:

Tier 1) Franklin, Hendo, Belfort, Forrest

Tier 2) Okami, Nate, Sakurai, Newton, Sonnen

Tier 3) Murray, Leben, Thales, Bonnar, Maia, Irvin

Tier 4) Basically everyone else

For the record I don’t buy into the whole “GSP tapped to strikes”, or “Silva was on peds his whole career”. To me they both represent the gold standard among goats in mma, and honestly they’re interchangeable on all time lists. They were both once in a lifetime talents who had incredible careers which followed similar but still different trajectories and I have nothing but respect and appreciation for them both as athletes and as champions.

 

[pankrat]

Diego got a shot at the lw title based on wins at lw and ww. He went to fw later.

Generally guys get more credit for wins in higher divisions, credit for wins in their own division, and less for wins a division down.

If it makes you feel better I’d be giving Okami credit for Shields if he had won the fight. Losing close fights only helps if you can eventually get those big wins, losing consistently in those situations renders you a gatekeeper.

Except he did. He did won those, mate. At least to the extent other guys you give full-credit as Kos, Alves of Fitch himself did. You keep negating Yushin's accomplishments with all type of twists.

Okami earned not one but two tittle shots in UFC. First in 2008 by finishing Tanner and being in a 7-1 run in UFC, which missed by injury; second in 2010 by beating Mark Muñoz and Nate Marquardt in a tittle eliminator.

The accomplishments of the aforementioned don't surpass that to an extent where they get credit as legitimate "first tier" contenders while Yushin is regarded a number of notches behind them, as you pretend.

If I’m ranking GSPs wins they go like this:
Tier 1) Hughes, Fitch, Kos, Shields

Tier 2) Alves, Penn, Sherk, Trigg, Condit, Diaz, Bisping

Tier 3) Hardy, Karo, Mayhem, Serra

Tier 4) Basically everyone else

For Silva I would rank them as follows:

Tier 1) Franklin, Hendo, Belfort, Forrest

Tier 2) Okami, Nate, Sakurai, Newton, Sonnen

Tier 3) Murray, Leben, Thales, Bonnar, Maia, Irvin

Tier 4) Basically everyone else

For the record I don’t buy into the whole “GSP tapped to strikes”, or “Silva was on peds his whole career”. To me they both represent the gold standard among goats in mma, and honestly they’re interchangeable on all time lists. They were both once in a lifetime talents who had incredible careers which followed similar but still different trajectories and I have nothing but respect and appreciation for them both as athletes and as champions.

I fully agree with the latter and to a large extent with your rankings too.

Let me tell you that ignoring Jeremy Horn for Anderson Silva is fucked up, mate.
Horn was ranked top5 inside a 31-3 run (you that love this kind of stat so much) only losses to Silva, Arona and Chuck. Horn fouht for the UFC LHW tittle, soon after he lost to Anderson. Horn weighted in 15lbs heavier than Silva, for the record. It was an openweight bout.

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

Word on the street is Okami was a huge MW.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Except he did. He did won those, mate. At least to the extent other guys you give full-credit as Kos, Alves of Fitch himself did. You keep negating Yushin's accomplishments with all type of twists.

Okami earned not one but two tittle shots in UFC. First in 2008 by finishing Tanner and being in a 7-1 run in UFC, which missed by injury; second in 2010 by beating Mark Muñoz and Nate Marquardt in a tittle eliminator.

The accomplishments of the aforementioned don't surpass that to an extent where they get credit as legitimate "first tier" contenders while Yushin is regarded a number of notches behind them, as you pretend.



I fully agree with the latter and to a large extent with your rankings too.

Let me tell you that ignoring Jeremy Horn for Anderson Silva is fucked up, mate.
Horn was ranked top5 inside a 31-3 run (you that love this kind of stat so much) only losses to Silva, Arona and Chuck. Horn fouht for the UFC LHW tittle, soon after he lost to Anderson. Horn weighted in 15lbs heavier than Silva, for the record. It was an openweight bout.

What? Okami didn’t beat Shields that’s my whole point. I’m saying had he won there would be credit to be had there, but he didn’t.

And fair, I just went off the top of my head when making the and just spaced on the Horn fight. I’d put it tier 3 (maybe tier 2 but that’s a win that I don’t think aged particularly well) but if I go back and edit it then your comment will make less sense and I don’t want to make it seem like I’m intentionally covering a mistake. That’s my bad.

 

[pankrat]

What? Okami didn’t beat Shields that’s my whole point. I’m saying had he won there would be credit to be had there, but he didn’t..

You said this:

. Losing close fights only helps if you can eventually get those big wins, losing consistently in those situations renders you a gatekeeper.

Hence my reply: Okami did got big wins, as you ask for, at least to the extent Kos, Alves or Fitch did.

Regarding Okami going two flip coin rounds with Shields followed by a dominant 3rd round in which Yusin made more damage than Shields in the whole fight, and didnt conceed any pass, sub attempt, or barely dominant position - because that's what happened, let's get it right, in case you didnt watched the fight

Your whole point is that two judges didnt agreed with another judge as well as with the American people in attendance who booed the decision in favour of the American fighter. That's your whole point, what makes the difference.
If you stand behind that it's cool, man. what can I say
Would like to see how would you compare then the top5 wins of Okami with Fitch, Alves or Kos for the latter being in another tier or whatever you wanna call it than Yushin, instead of being rather on par.

Let's be hnest here, if it was GSP who had finished Fitch after outclassing him badly inside 7 minuts....while Silva had just decisioned Yushin...we would not be having this convo.

And fair, I just went off the top of my head when making the and just spaced on the Horn fight. I’d put it tier 3 (maybe tier 2 but that’s a win that I don’t think aged particularly well) but if I go back and edit it then your comment will make less sense and I don’t want to make it seem like I’m intentionally covering a mistake. That’s my bad.

I mean...if Trigg is deserving of Tier 2 status, Jeremy Horn is certainly so, especially given that you dont agree on finish > decision....unles you consider Silva's tiers to be more expensive, which after our long conversation today, I highly doubt you suggest so.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

For me the Fitch win is easily more impressive as it’s a higher quality opponent (no disrespect to Okami).

But why those two? Anderson’s win over Hendo is I think the most impressive win between the two fighters’ careers overall. I also think his win over Griffin is more impressive than GSP’s Fitch win.

 

[pankrat]

Word on the street is Okami was a huge MW.

A sherdog meme fueled by Joe Rogan. Yushin's huge head and broad shoulders helped I guess.

> Okami competed at WW almost half of his career. In his 20s and his 30s.

> His last fight before signing by UFC in 2006 was at 170. Then again in 2017.

> Weighted in at 180lbs for a 205 bout in his last fight in Pride in 2004

> Okami weighted in at 203lbs with his clothes on for a week notice fight at 205 vs OSP

> He used to step into the cage at 190-195lbs during his prime, actually below average by MW standards at the top, especially by modern standards.

> Has been competing at WW in ONE, where severe dehydration isn't allowed.