Which GOAT win was the best between these 2?

[pankrat]

100% disagree. You weren't there at the time during Sanchez unbeaten streak. He was much, much much highly regarded than Nate.

You keep confirming the fact that you only started following mma 4 years ago.

Ohhhhhhhhhh the irony

And no they didnt weight about the same in the cage.

You sound childish af dude.
Keep lying if it makes you feel good, incel.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

It's Fitch easily. Fitch was the second best WW in the UFC for a long period of time. Okami wasn't even considered the second best MW in the UFC when he got his title shot he was just the highest ranked guy Anderson had not beaten yet.

 

[pankrat]

It's Fitch easily. Fitch was the second best WW in the UFC for a long period of time. Okami wasn't even considered the second best MW in the UFC when he got his title shot he was just the highest ranked guy Anderson had not beaten yet.

Okami had more and higher ranked wins than Fitch, whose only ranked win coming off to his tittle shot was #5 Sanchez by SD.

Yet you say Okami "wasnt even considered the second best" while Fitch yes, "easily."

It's impressive how much GSP fanboys dishonestly change the narrative.

 

[Aurelian]

And if he had finished him inside 7 minuts in a flawless performance would be even more impressive than a 25 minuts decision, by 50-43 or by 50-40.

So you could have just said "Im a GSP fanboy" instead of trying a biased argument.

Sure. I'm a GSP fan boy. You sound salty.

 

[pankrat]

Sure. I'm a GSP fan boy. You sound salty.

I care about arguments and facts, friend.
If I see a guy blatantly discussing with biased, dishonest arguments, I tell it as it is. No salty at all, I wish you the best mate.

If Silva had taken Okami to a decision and GSP would have murdered Fitch inside 7 minuts you would not be saying "woow, a dominant decision, that's really impressive. Silva > GSP"....and you know it.

 

[Juzie]

Would you say Hector Lombard's Bellator run was more impressive than Silva at that time? Silva was getting taken to a decision by Thales fricking Leites and Demian Maia, beaten down for 4 and a half rounds by Chael Sonnen. No one was lasting around against "Shango" (Lombard's nickname at the time) we gotta give it to Hector over Silva..... right?

You would almost think that " KO of the decade" of Vitor saved Silva's abysmal career wouldn't you.

 

[ThunderStruck]

This conclussion is pretty dishonest.
Okami was clearly in the decline.

Fitch is older than Okami.

Whos dishonest?

 

[pankrat]

Fitch is older than Okami.

Whos dishonest?

Fitch popped for PED around that time, unlike Okami
You are the dishonest,, incel

 

[ThunderStruck]

You sound childish af dude.
Keep lying if it makes you feel good, incel.

Another ironic post of yours. You are good at that.

 

[pankrat]

Another ironic post of yours. You are good at that.

Well done, baby

 

[ThunderStruck]

Fitch popped for PED around that time, unlike Okami
You are the dishonest,, incel

Stop changing subject. Why did you act like Okami was declining but Fitch wasnt?

And you have no proof that Fitch was on PED for that fight.

All we know is :

1. Fitch was older than Okami.
2. Fitch was considerably smaller than Okami.
3. Fitch beat Okami.

 

[pankrat]

Would you say Hector Lombard's Bellator run was more impressive than Silva at that time? Silva was getting taken to a decision by Thales fricking Leites and Demian Maia, beaten down for 4 and a half rounds by Chael Sonnen. No one was lasting around against "Shango" (Lombard's nickname at the time) we gotta give it to Hector over Silva..... right?

You would almost think that " KO of the decade" of Vitor saved Silva's abysmal career wouldn't you.

Shango didnt finish Shlemenko. His highes profile fnish in Bellator was Falaniko Vitale.

So this dude compare Vitor Belfort to Falaniko Vitale. Very honest dude.

Now says this:

You would almost think that " KO of the decade" of Vitor saved Silva's abysmal career wouldn't you.

"Silva's abysmal career"

Ale, have a good day

 

[HavokHarmon]

Thats a strongly biased way to look at it when the fact is that Fitch's only ranked win coming into his tittle shot was over #5 ranked Sanchez by SD...

.. while Okami had more ranked wins under his belt at the time, including an UD over #3 ranked Marquardt, and a very controversial decision with Shields

Okami had already gotten a tittle shot in 2008 btw, which missed by injury

I don’t think it’s biased to note the state of the division at the time someone was ranked.

There’s also more to look at than just number of ranked wins prior to a title shot for context. Although not ranked highly Fitch had wins over Alves and Burkman at the time of his title shot, and they were in a 16 fight run with 8 of those wins coming in the UFC. The best streak Okami ever hit was 4, so I would argue that longevity counts for something there.

I also think you have to look at how a fighter performs after losing. Fitch proved himself to be a strong contender by remaining at the top of the division for years to come, rattling off 5 more solid wins before drawing with Penn.

Another thing to consider are the losses. At the time Okami had already lost to both Franklin and Sonnen, guys who we had seen Silva beat. Granted mma math isn’t an exact science but the fact that we had already watched him lose to a guy Silva absolutely manhandled made it seem like the UFC were reaching for contenders in a cleaned out division.

Yet another way to approach this comparison would be to ask “Was there ever a time within this persons career where, had their division NOT been ruled with an iron fist by a goat (I think both Silva and GSP are definitive goat standards), they would have been likely to hold the belt?”. For Fitch this actually seems fairly likely as his worst matchup was Kos who
1) May not have even taken the fight considering their relationship, and
2) Would have gotten to a title shot after Fitch tendering the question moot

Hard to say how Fitch would have fared against the likes of Hughes because although he was in the twilight of his career was still a top level fighter. What we do know is that around the time of Fitchs run he beat Alves twice while Hughes got obliterated. There’s obviously no way of knowing for certain without them having fought, but given what we do know it at least seems plausible, if not likely.

Okami winning gold really doesn’t seem plausible, for several reasons.
1) He already lost to two other contenders, and it’s safe to say he would have needed to beat at least one of them in order to secure the belt.
2) His window of viability appears much shorter than Jon’s, at least on paper.

His fight with Franklin was only a year or so after Rich lost the belt, so had that been for the title, we saw it. He lost. His loss to Sonnen came a year after he was supposed to get a title shot to begin with, so it seems that had Chael been champion Okami wouldn’t have been able to secure a victory there either. That leaves us with 2008, where his only other potential opponent would have been Henderson, who I wouldn’t favor him against for a variety of reasons.

In any case, it isn’t just any one of these reasons which constitute my pick; it’s the strength of all of them out together.

 

[ThunderStruck]

I don’t think it’s biased to note the state of the division at the time someone was ranked.

There’s also more to look at than just number of ranked wins prior to a title shot for context. Although not ranked highly Fitch had wins over Alves and Burkman at the time of his title shot, and they were in a 16 fight run with 8 of those wins coming in the UFC. The best streak Okami ever hit was 4, so I would argue that longevity counts for something there.

I also think you have to look at how a fighter performs after losing. Fitch proved himself to be a strong contender by remaining at the top of the division for years to come, rattling off 5 more solid wins before drawing with Penn.

Another thing to consider are the losses. At the time Okami had already lost to both Franklin and Sonnen, guys who we had seen Silva beat. Granted mma math isn’t an exact science but the fact that we had already watched him lose to a guy Silva absolutely manhandled made it seem like the UFC were reaching for contenders in a cleaned out division.

Yet another way to approach this comparison would be to ask “Was there ever a time within this persons career where, had their division NOT been ruled with an iron fist by a goat (I think both Silva and GSP are definitive goat standards), they would have been likely to hold the belt?”. For Fitch this actually seems fairly likely as his worst matchup was Kos who
1) May not have even taken the fight considering their relationship, and
2) Would have gotten to a title shot after Fitch tendering the question moot

Hard to say how Fitch would have fared against the likes of Hughes because although he was in the twilight of his career was still a top level fighter. What we do know is that around the time of Fitchs run he beat Alves twice while Hughes got obliterated. There’s obviously no way of knowing for certain without them having fought, but given what we do know it at least seems plausible, if not likely.

Okami winning gold really doesn’t seem plausible, for several reasons.
1) He already lost to two other contenders, and it’s safe to say he would have needed to beat at least one of them in order to secure the belt.
2) His window of viability appears much shorter than Jon’s, at least on paper.

His fight with Franklin was only a year or so after Rich lost the belt, so had that been for the title, we saw it. He lost. His loss to Sonnen came a year after he was supposed to get a title shot to begin with, so it seems that had Chael been champion Okami wouldn’t have been able to secure a victory there either. That leaves us with 2008, where his only other potential opponent would have been Henderson, who I wouldn’t favor him against for a variety of reasons.

In any case, it isn’t just any one of these reasons which constitute my pick; it’s the strength of all of them out together.

Very well said.

 

[pankrat]

Thanks. I appreciate a solid reply.

I don’t think it’s biased to note the state of the division at the time someone was ranked.

Not necesarilly. But in this case, I think it's dishonest to discredit Okami's high rank based on that and in this particular comparison, because Okami did beat guys who succeed at WW too, did beat guys who were legit regardless of the division they were at the moment.
Not to mention Okami himself took Shields to a highly controversial decision at WW, which is a feat in my book.

There’s also more to look at than just number of ranked wins prior to a title shot for context. Although not ranked highly Fitch had wins over Alves and Burkman at the time of his title shot, and they were in a 16 fight run with 8 of those wins coming in the UFC. The best streak Okami ever hit was 4, so I would argue that longevity counts for something there.

Ok, let's not talk based on "ranked" wins, but on who they actually beat regardless of their rank.
You mentioned that, apart from Sanchez, Alves (who was 2-1 in UFC at the time) and Burkman were legit wins.

Aren't Okami's most notable wins, apart from Marquardt, comparable to them at the time?

- Muñoz: 8-1 run in UFC at MW only loss to Okami, including a win over Maia
- Swick: 9-1 run in UFC only loss to Okami. Moved down just after losing to Yushin and made a run to a tittle eliminator at WW.
Apart from Alan Belcher, Evan Tanner or Jason McDonald

Are Fitch's "clearly", "easily"... better than Okami's?

Another thing to consider are the losses. At the time Okami had already lost to both Franklin and Sonnen, guys who we had seen Silva beat. Granted mma math isn’t an exact science but the fact that we had already watched him lose to a guy Silva absolutely manhandled made it seem like the UFC were reaching for contenders in a cleaned out division.
.

Completely agree. Losses matter....as much as how did those losses come.

Do you think taking Shields to a highly controversial decision, disagreed by the commentators and booed by the American people in attendance is a knock on Yushin, its a credit, or it's completely irrelevant? I'd say is more of a credit to his caliber, honestly.

Talking about losses, are you aware about the Joslin vs Fitch fight. It's a known robbery. It's not an opinion: Fitch tapped, ref broke the fight, and then allowed him to continue. Pro-wrestling stuff righ there.

Now, we rate fighters based on the record, or on the actual fights?
You take Okami's "L" to Shields and Fitch's "W" to Joslin for what they were or how do you take them?

Because if you take the Joslin fight for what it was, numbers like Fitch's 16 winning streak that you referenced is not so anymore. That's why numbers based on the record can be so deceiving.

>>

Let's make clear that Im not saying Okami was slightly or clearly better than Fitch. Im saying they were comparable caliber of competition.

If both GSP and SIlva had beaten his opponent in similar fashion, I would even tend to agree that Fitch win was slightly superior.

But when one of them was FINISHED in a flawless performance...when the refere literally had to intervene to save the man's life... that matters in fighting, friend.

Some of you are saying Fitch was on such another level compared to Yushin to the ppoint it doesnt matter. And, frankly, I feel like some very dishonest, biased arguments are being used to support that, which often involves gross discredit of Okami.

 

[pankrat]

Yet another way to approach this comparison would be to ask “Was there ever a time within this persons career where, had their division NOT been ruled with an iron fist by a goat (I think both Silva and GSP are definitive goat standards), they would have been likely to hold the belt?”. For Fitch this actually seems fairly likely as his worst matchup was Kos who
1) May not have even taken the fight considering their relationship, and
2) Would have gotten to a title shot after Fitch tendering the question moot

Hard to say how Fitch would have fared against the likes of Hughes because although he was in the twilight of his career was still a top level fighter. What we do know is that around the time of Fitchs run he beat Alves twice while Hughes got obliterated. There’s obviously no way of knowing for certain without them having fought, but given what we do know it at least seems plausible, if not likely.

Okami winning gold really doesn’t seem plausible, for several reasons.
1) He already lost to two other contenders, and it’s safe to say he would have needed to beat at least one of them in order to secure the belt.
2) His window of viability appears much shorter than Jon’s, at least on paper.

His fight with Franklin was only a year or so after Rich lost the belt, so had that been for the title, we saw it. He lost. His loss to Sonnen came a year after he was supposed to get a title shot to begin with, so it seems that had Chael been champion Okami wouldn’t have been able to secure a victory there either. That leaves us with 2008, where his only other potential opponent would have been Henderson, who I wouldn’t favor him against for a variety of reasons.

In any case, it isn’t just any one of these reasons which constitute my pick; it’s the strength of all of them out together.

It's interesting approach but now we get into fantasy world...
First of all, in case we assume that there wasnt a guy ruling the division with an iron fist, we can also especulate that Shields would have made the move down to WW earlier, or Maia, or GSP's training partner Marquardt who actually become WW champ eventually. Or BJ Penn, who arguably beat Fitch despite being in the decline, would have ruled it.....

Would Fitch be a clear favourite over these guys? It's far from certain, man.
Does Fitch being buddy of Kos matters in this dicussion? It serves him as some kind of excuse?

Anyways, I dont think your assesment is fair with Okami, again.

You say Okami winnning gold was not plausible - as opposed to Fich - because he lost to Franklin and Sonnen....
First of all, Fitch didnt face a #2 guy prior to getting his tittle shot. So obviously is easier not to lose when you dont have to face it in the first place.

But...did you see Okami vs Franklin extremely close fight? Dont you think is very plausible that Yushin got the better in a rematch, especially considering he got way better from there in almost every aspect?

Marquardt was also widely considered the #2 guy during Silva's reign, around the time he KOed Marquardt or Kampann. There is a clear path to gold for Okami there, dont you agree?

It's an interesting approach but as I said, is pure fantasy and, again, I dont think it places Fitch in another level than Yushin honestly

 

[HavokHarmon]

Thanks. I appreciate a solid reply.




Not necesarilly. But in this case, I think it's dishonest to discredit Okami's high rank based on that and in this particular comparison, because Okami did beat guys who succeed at WW too, did beat guys who were legit regardless of the division they were at the moment.
Not to mention Okami himself took Shields to a highly controversial decision at WW, which is a feat in my book.




Ok, let's not talk based on "ranked" wins, but on who they actually beat regardless of their rank.
You mentioned that, apart from Sanchez, Alves (who was 2-1 in UFC at the time) and Burkman were legit wins.

Aren't Okami's most notable wins, apart from Marquardt, comparable to them at the time?

- Muñoz: 8-1 run in UFC at MW only loss to Okami, including a win over Maia
- Swick: 9-1 run in UFC only loss to Okami. Moved down just after losing to Yushin and made a run to a tittle eliminator at WW.
Apart from Alan Belcher, Evan Tanner or Jason McDonald

Are Fitch's "clearly", "easily"... better than Okami's?



Completely agree. Losses matter....as much as how did those losses come.

Do you think taking Shields to a highly controversial decision, disagreed by the commentators and booed by the American people in attendance is a knock on Yushin, its a credit, or it's completely irrelevant? I'd say is more of a credit to his caliber, honestly.

Talking about losses, are you aware about the Joslin vs Fitch fight. It's a known robbery. It's not an opinion: Fitch tapped, ref broke the fight, and then allowed him to continue. Pro-wrestling stuff righ there.

Now, we rate fighters based on the record, or on the actual fights?
You take Okami's "L" to Shields and Fitch's "W" to Joslin for what they were or how do you take them?

Because if you take the Joslin fight for what it was, numbers like Fitch's 16 winning streak that you referenced is not so anymore. That's why numbers based on the record can be so deceiving.

>>

Let's make clear that Im not saying Okami was slightly or clearly better than Fitch. Im saying they were comparable caliber of competition.

If both GSP and SIlva had beaten his opponent in similar fashion, I would even tend to agree that Fitch win was slightly superior.

But when one of them was FINISHED in a flawless performance...when the refere literally had to intervene to save the man's life... that matters in fighting, friend.

Some of you are saying Fitch was on such another level compared to Yushin to the ppoint it doesnt matter. And, frankly, I feel like some very dishonest, biased arguments are being used to support that, which often involves gross discredit of Okami.

I agree with you about Munoz, that was a solid win. I’d put Swick a notch or so below that though, he was a journeyman at best and his title eliminator was around the time that Hardy got his shot, which only happened because at that point WW was cleaned out. Frankly Macdonald and Belcher are probably both better wins than Swick.

I’d still put Alves, Burkman and Sanchez over Belcher Munoz and Nate. With the 16 fight streak and the fact that Fitch got 5 solid wins consecutively after his fight with GSP whereas Okami fell off, that just makes the gap that much bigger.

As for putting Silva’s win higher because it was a finish, I’d say it’s a wash. I can see the argument that a finish is better than a dominant decision like that because stopping the fight shuts out all hope. That’s what we’re here for and it’s the gold standard.

I also see the argument that a dominant decision is better than a finish when it’s an absolute pounding like it was between GSP and Fitch because over 5 rounds you’re showcasing that GSP is superior is better in every single area than Fitch. Fitch can’t take GSP down no matter what he does, GSP takes him down at will. Fitch can’t land meaningful strikes to save his life, GSP rocks and staggers him multiple times throughout the fight.

I think both arguments have merit, so ultimately I think they’re equally meaningful.

Additionally I don’t put much weight on the Shields fight. It seems weird to me that one of the arguments you keep repeating requires me to place a lot of value on a loss Okami had a weight class down.

I mean I get it, it’s Jake Shields, but it wasn’t even at mw. And he lost. Not throwing shade, I just can’t make it mean that much even when I’m trying.

 

[HavokHarmon]

It's interesting approach but now we get into fantasy world...
First of all, in case we assume that there wasnt a guy ruling the division with an iron fist, we can also especulate that Shields would have made the move down to WW earlier, or Maia, or GSP's training partner Marquardt who actually become WW champ eventually. Or BJ Penn, who arguably beat Fitch despite being in the decline, would have ruled it.....

Would Fitch be a clear favourite over these guys? It's far from certain, man.
Does Fitch being buddy of Kos matters in this dicussion? It serves him as some kind of excuse?

Anyways, I dont think your assesment is fair with Okami, again.

You say Okami winnning gold was not plausible - as opposed to Fich - because he lost to Franklin and Sonnen....
First of all, Fitch didnt face a #2 guy prior to getting his tittle shot. So obviously is easier not to lose when you dont have to face it in the first place.

But...did you see Okami vs Franklin extremely close fight? Dont you think is very plausible that Yushin got the better in a rematch, especially considering he got way better from there in almost every aspect?

Marquardt was also widely considered the #2 guy during Silva's reign, around the time he KOed Marquardt or Kampann. There is a clear path to gold for Okami there, dont you agree?

It's an interesting approach but as I said, is pure fantasy and, again, I dont think it places Fitch in another level than Yushin honestly

Why do you think Shields would have moved down? He wasn’t even in the UFC until several years later, his weight class had nothing to do with the presence or absence of GSP.

Penn was at lw at the time, didn’t come back up until after Fitch got his shot.

Kos and Fitch being friends only matters because I’m acknowledging that Kos could beat Fitch, but if Fitch is already champ then it doesn’t matter anyways. I’m conceding that Fitch has bad matchups in the division, but pointing out why that’s unlikely to matter.

Nate was only the #2 guy because guys like Hendo and Ace had already gotten bumped off by Silva. Had it not been for Silva I could see Franklin, Hendo and Belfort all splitting time as champions. I don’t see any of those 3 losing to the next tier, imo that being Nate and Okami.

 

[pankrat]

I agree with you about Munoz, that was a solid win. I’d put Swick a notch or so below that though, he was a journeyman at best and his title eliminator was around the time that Hardy got his shot, which only happened because at that point WW was cleaned out. Frankly Macdonald and Belcher are probably both better wins than Swick.

I’d still put Alves, Burkman and Sanchez over Belcher Munoz and Nate. With the 16 fight streak and the fact that Fitch got 5 solid wins consecutively after his fight with GSP whereas Okami fell off, that just makes the gap that much bigger.

As for putting Silva’s win higher because it was a finish, I’d say it’s a wash. I can see the argument that a finish is better than a dominant decision like that because stopping the fight shuts out all hope. That’s what we’re here for and it’s the gold standard.

I also see the argument that a dominant decision is better than a finish when it’s an absolute pounding like it was between GSP and Fitch because over 5 rounds you’re showcasing that GSP is superior is better in every single area than Fitch. Fitch can’t take GSP down no matter what he does, GSP takes him down at will. Fitch can’t land meaningful strikes to save his life, GSP rocks and staggers him multiple times throughout the fight.

I think both arguments have merit, so ultimately I think they’re equally meaningful.

Additionally I don’t put much weight on the Shields fight. It seems weird to me that one of the arguments you keep repeating requires me to place a lot of value on a loss Okami had a weight class down.

I mean I get it, it’s Jake Shields, but it wasn’t even at mw. And he lost. Not throwing shade, I just can’t make it mean that much even when I’m trying.

I appreciate the reply and want to trust in your honesty but correct me where Im wrong:

- You say is not "just about ranked wins" - which its an objective fact that Okami had more of those - yet you put value on a 16 winning streak even if only contained a ranked win, #5 Sanchez by SD (you are allowed to tell me about the difference between that SD and Okami's SD to Shields, in terms of scoring/judging or whatever you wish, if you feel like it)

- I let you know about the Joslin fight, but you ignore it and keep bringing that "16" argument.
At the same time, you dont find, any value on Okami being the toughest fight in that mythical 15 (this time the number is legit) winning strak of Shields than ended with GSP. And that Okami actually beat Shields in the eyes of most observers and an official judge.

...Yet you dont find there any value...."even when trying"...

- On the one hand, you dont find much value on ranked wins at MW because "it was in a shallow division", on the other hand if I want to give the guy credit for a fight that took place in a lower division...now it doesn count neither because "it wasnt even at MW"

- Okami vs Shields took place in the ROTR tournament under the 175lbs limit.. It also had Anderson Silva or Condit on it.
Technically, WW goes from 155-170. MW is 170-185.
Given that you want to stick to on-paper facts (Fitch's 16 winning streak, Okami vs Shields)...at least be coherent, friend.

 

[HavokHarmon]

I appreciate the reply and want to trust in your honesty but correct me where Im wrong:

- You say is not "just about ranked wins" - which its an objective fact that Okami had more of those - yet you put value on a 16 winning streak even if only contained a ranked win, #5 Sanchez by SD (you are allowed to tell me about the difference between that SD and Okami's SD to Shields, in terms of scoring/judging or whatever you wish, if you feel like it)

- I let you know about the Joslin fight, but you ignore it and keep bringing that "16" argument.
At the same time, you dont find, any value on Okami being the toughest fight in that mythical 15 (this time the number is legit) winning strak of Shields than ended with GSP. And that Okami actually beat Shields in the eyes of most observers and an official judge.

...Yet you dont find there any value...."even when trying"...

- On the one hand, you dont find much value on ranked wins at MW because "it was in a shallow division", on the other hand if I want to give the guy credit for a fight that took place in a lower division...now it doesn count neither because "it wasnt even at MW"

- Okami vs Shields took place in the ROTR tournament under the 175lbs limit.. It also had Anderson Silva or Condit on it.
Technically, WW goes from 155-170. MW is 170-185.
Given that you want to stick to on-paper facts (Fitch's 16 winning streak, Okami vs Shields)...at least be coherent, friend.

Sure thing, so basically I’m just acknowledging that we have the luxury of analyzing a fighters wins retrospectively. Alves for instance was fighting for the belt within a couple years, so although not highly ranked when Fitch met him, with the power of hindsight we can see that win is more valuable than it appeared at the time.

Two differences:
1) Fitch fought Sanchez at the weight class he fought for the title. Okami fought Shields a division down
2) Fitch actually won his fight. Okami did not.

That’s correct, I see no connection between Fitch being on a 16 fight win streak and Okami being hard to beat a weight class down.

And that’s fine, it was called a welterweight tournament but we can go with that. I still don’t see a near win as having as much value as a 16 fight win streak.

It’s not that it doesn’t count. It just counts for less, especially given that he lost.