Which GOAT win was the best between these 2?

[jsbx45]

Forcing the referee to step up will always be superior than taking your opponent to the judges. You could even say that's what ultimately martial arts is about.

Fitch and Okami at the moment they fought for the tittle were opponents of similar caliber, according to rankings, odds and record vs top competition.

Certainly not a difference that would justify claiming a decision is a superior performance than actually stopping your opponent.

Okami was never on Fitch's level. Not even close really.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

They're ignoring this post because it completely and utterly disproves the entire premise of the thread. He doesn't have a 90% win rate. NC's ARE included in win rate

No, NCs should not be included in win rate. Win, losses, and draws should be counted. An NC by definition is a fight that is considered not to have been contested. It's as if the fight didn't happen, and had no official result. Fitch won 90% of his fights that had a valid, officially recognized conclusion.

 

[Fioretti]

How about the fact that when Fitch was at 32 pro fights, he had a worse record than Okami? Can we do that, or are we only using their status at the time of the fights in question? I'm confused on how we are actually comparing these guys, or do we not get to actually compare?

At 32 fights into their careers:

Okami: 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate) - 3-1 in his last 4 fights - with 4 top 10 wins
Fitch: 25-5-1-1 (78.12% win rate) with 11 finishes (44% finish rate) - 1-2-1 in his last 4 fights - with 3 top 10 wins

Fun facts:

- Fitch fought another 10 times over 5 years since the GSP fight, and didn't get one single finish - lowering his finish rate by over 13%.
- Fitch (while being the consensus #2 for 3.5 years) only added 6 more total wins to his resume in 5 years/10 fights - lowering his win rate by over 8%.
- Fitch (while being the consensus #2 for 3.5 years) only added 2 more top 10 wins to his resume in 5 years/10 fights - still less than what Okami had when he fought Silva.

How does this look now? Cold hard facts, kids. Cry cry cry.

@pankrat
@IngaVovchanchyn
@ThunderStruck

 

[Fioretti]

No, NCs should not be included in win rate. Win, losses, and draws should be counted. An NC by definition is a fight that is considered not to have been contested. It's as if the fight didn't happen, and had no official result. Fitch won 90% of his fights that had a valid, officially recognized conclusion.

If they're on the official record, it counts as total fights. We both know that with a smaller sample size, numbers can be skewed anyway, so in the post above I compared the two fighters at 32 pro fights. Doesn't look pretty for Fitchy, even though he was the #2 for so long and such an unbeatable WW juggernaut. Have a looksie, friend.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Odds for Okami vs Fitch:
https://www.bestfightodds.com/events/wsof-24-fitch-vs-okami-998

Okami favourite. Now shut the fuck up.
Okami favourite despite being at 170 instead of 185, despite Okami coming off a loss and moving down a weightclass for the first time in 8 years..

How is that relevent you dumb shit? Who won that fight? Fitch. Now address this fact and all the others i provided with proofs that you keep ignoring.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Y´all were informed ITT that the Jeff Joslin fight, in the middle of that run, @ Freedom Fight in 2005, was a shameless hobbery, pro-wrasslin´ style.

Consequently, stop usin´that 16 Wins Streak angle, or counter that argument.

Even if you want to treat it as a loss (different peoples have different opinions), thats still a 8 fights win streak. Almost 3 times longer than Okami's leading up into the fight.

 

[ThunderStruck]

If they're on the official record, it counts as total fights. We both know that with a smaller sample size, numbers can be skewed anyway, so in the post above I compared the two fighters at 32 pro fights. Doesn't look pretty for Fitchy, even though he was the #2 for so long and such an unbeatable WW juggernaut. Have a looksie, friend.

Doesn't look good for fitch? He lost his very fist pro fight and then his only other loss was at LHW against a Gigantic guy. How does 2 losses looks bad for Fitch but 4 losses looks good for Okami?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

If they're on the official record, it counts as total fights. We both know that with a smaller sample size, numbers can be skewed anyway, so in the post above I compared the two fighters at 32 pro fights. Doesn't look pretty for Fitchy, even though he was the #2 for so long and such an unbeatable WW juggernaut. Have a looksie, friend.

What a NC means is that although a fight took place, and people observed it happen, any potential result is not part of the official record. There is no officially recognized result. It's neither a win nor a lack of a win. You don't count it for the same reason you don't count wins in street fights, the results are not part of the official record. In terms of the official record, the fight was never contested. So Fitch's win rate is 90%.

 

[Fioretti]

Doesn't look good for fitch? He lost his very fist pro fight and then his only other loss was at LHW against a Gigantic guy. How does 2 losses looks bad for Fitch but 4 losses looks good for Okami?

Look at the post I tagged you in, kidd-o. Both fighters at 32 pro fights. After Fitch was #2 for soooooo long.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Look at the post I tagged you in, kidd-o. Both fighters at 32 pro fights. After Fitch was #2 for soooooo long.

Ranked #2 for so long because he lost twice as less? Case proven.

 

[jsbx45]

Hey dude we are in the 15th page of thread and you come with this as blanket and simpleton take as you can get.
Just read the post above yours and come up with someting better or you just will be the last man to evidence in this thread that the level of most GSP fanboys around these boards leeaves a lot to be desired.

Calm down you angry little twerp. Okami was never on Fitch's level, Sorry if you find that to be so offensive. It is a simple take because it is a simple concept. You obviously have a little too much emotional investment in Okami, and BTW, this was a response to your comment made on the first page of the thread. First or 15th page, doesn't change the facts, neither does hurling insults. Which, if you want, we can do...but it won't help your argument any.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Holly shit if that's not an autistic way to look at a fighter's caliber. Raw W/L arithmetics, ratios, %, stats.... like a rat hahah.

You son realize that Fioretti is the one that brought the win % ? How about you insult him instead?

 

[Fioretti]

What a NC means is that although a fight took place, and people observed it happen, any potential result is not part of the official record. There is no officially recognized result. It's neither a win nor a lack of a win. You don't count it for the same reason you don't count wins in street fights, the results are not part of the official record. In terms of the official record, the fight was never contested. So Fitch's win rate is 90%.

If it's on their record, it counts towards total fights, but let's do it your way, sure. So you want to compare Okami at 32 fights into his career vs Fitch at 21 (minus his NC) ? Do you think that's a fair comparison? Do you not understand that his numbers will be magnified because there is a smaller sample size? I mean, Fitch has just over 50% less total fights. I think a more fair comparison would be the one I made earlier, with both fighters at 32 pro fights, don't you? In this case, I'll not count the NC for Fitch, and just move to his next fight. Luckily, almost all the numbers are identical, because he lost his next fight, so the percentages all stay the same, the only things that change are that Okami now has 2 more wins, 1 less loss, 10 fights is now 11 fights, and Fitch's record in his last 4 moves to 1-3.

Here are the numbers:

At 32 fights into their careers:

Okami: 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate) - 3-1 in his last 4 fights - with 4 top 10 wins
Fitch: 25-6-1 (78.12% win rate) with 11 finishes (44% finish rate) - 1-3 in his last 4 fights - with 3 top 10 wins

Fun facts:

- Fitch fought another 11 times over 5 years since the GSP fight, and didn't get one single finish - lowering his finish rate by over 13%.
- Fitch (while being the consensus #2 for 3.5 years) only added 6 more total wins to his resume in 5 years/11 fights - lowering his win rate by over 11%.
- Fitch (while being the consensus #2 for 3.5 years) only added 2 more top 10 wins to his resume in 5 years/11 fights - still less than what Okami had when he fought Silva.
- This is where Okami was at when he fought Silva for the title.
- This is where Fitch was at 5 years after facing GSP, after holding the #2 spot in the "most stacked division" for 42 months.

How does this look now?

 

[Fioretti]

Calm down you angry little twerp. Okami was never on Fitch's level. It is a simple take because it is a simple concept. You obviously have a little too much emotional investment in Okami, and BTW, this was a response to your comment made on the first page of the thread. First or 15th page, doesn't change the facts, neither does hurling insults. Which, if you want, we can do...but it won't help your argument any.

I agree that Okami and Fitch weren't really on the same level:

At 32 fights into their careers:

Okami: 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate) - 3-1 in his last 4 fights - with 4 top 10 wins
Fitch: 25-6-1 (78.12% win rate) with 11 finishes (44% finish rate) - 1-3 in his last 4 fights - with 3 top 10 wins

Weird, isn't it?

 

[Fioretti]

You that also love stats like Inga and her goonies, do you have the stat about ranked wins for Okami and Fitch? in their whole UFC run I mean. thanks in advance

In their UFC careers:

Okami has 5 verified top 10 wins, 6 if Munoz was top 10. I can't confirm whether or not Munoz was top 10, so I'll leave him out.

Fitch has 3 verified top 10 wins.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

So you want to compare Okami at 32 fights into his career vs Fitch at 21 (minus his NC) ? Do you think that's a fair comparison?

Of course, because we are comparing where they were and how good they were at the times of the GSP fight and the Silva fight respectively.

 

[pankrat]

Calm down you angry little twerp. Okami was never on Fitch's level. It is a simple take because it is a simple concept. You obviously have a little too much emotional investment in Okami, and BTW, this was a response to your comment made on the first page of the thread. First or 15th page, doesn't change the facts, neither does hurling insults. Which, if you want, we can do...but it won't help your argument any.

I didnt insult you actually so dont cry like a battered wife in advance.
Dont take it personal anyways, English isnt my first language and enjoy working on them that way.
I called your reply simple and blanket and it was and u know it, and especially to come up with it in the 15th page.

Address the points in the reply quoted or you can save the 3rd reply to babble the same blanket, pointless, shertard shit you delivered twice already,

That's an interesting take, rating the win based on whether if Fitch/Okami would have been champs in case GSP/Silva weren't around.

Its especulation but as far as we can tell:
- Both Fitch and Okami beat only one actual tittle contender from that era - Alves and Marquard respectively
- Okami was in more tittle eliminators (Franklin in an extremely close dec, KOed Tanner but missed the shot by injury, Marquardt by UD)
- Fitch/Okami had around same nº of ranked wins (not sure but I think it depends what source you look at, you can find a case for either of them)

- It's safe to say that if Okami and Fitch were matched up around that time (2008-2013), none of them would be a clear favourite over the other, at 170 or at 185. As a reference, when they eventually got matched up already past their pime, odds had Okami favourite despite coming off a KO loss, 3 Ls in his last 6, and moving down a weightclass for the first time in more than 8 years:
https://www.bestfightodds.com/events/wsof-24-fitch-vs-okami-998
- Okami had a highly controversial fight with Shields at WW in which he was the deserving winner in the eyes of most observers. It was Shields toughest opponent in that mytical run of him that ended with GSP, and Im pretty sure if they were matched up in a rematch....Okami would not have less favourable odds than Fitch against the same opponent.

I think all suggest that you could make a case for either of them, but in no way, shape or form, you can say the difference in caliber of competition between Fitch and Okami was big enough to justifiy claiming that stopping your opponent in a masterclass is an inferior performance than taking it to the juges, as lopsided as it was the decision.

 

[Fioretti]

Of course, because we are comparing where they were and how good they were at the times of the GSP fight and the Silva fight respectively.

Didn't you say how Fitch held the #2 spot for years and years though? That wasn't true when he fought GSP. So, are we comparing ONLY where they were when they fought these guys, or are we just allowing you to pick and choose what, when, and where you want, so that it fits your narrative? You can't fucking cherry pick shit and fabricate the story to fit your narrative on how you want to compare shit, buddeh.

 

[jsbx45]

I agree that Okami and Fitch weren't really on the same level:

At 32 fights into their careers:

Okami: 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate) - 3-1 in his last 4 fights - with 4 top 10 wins
Fitch: 25-6-1 (78.12% win rate) with 11 finishes (44% finish rate) - 1-3 in his last 4 fights - with 3 top 10 wins

Weird, isn't it?

Fitch was never a finisher, and what do their last 4 fights have to do with this argument? Why are we arguing this? At the time, Fitch was a much better win. You revisionists can scream and yell all you want but it won't change a thing for folks who were paying attention to the game at the time. Y"all Okami fan club seem to be a little too invested in this whole fucking argument over a subjective historical tidbit anways, Jeebus. Go get some food you guys, I think your boy @pankrat is going low blood sugar.

 

[Fioretti]

Fitch was never a finisher, and what do their last 4 fights have to do with this argument? Why are we arguing this? At the time, Fitch was a much better win. You revisionists can scream and yell all you want but it won't change a thing for folks who were paying attention to the game at the time. Y"all Okami fan club seem to be a little too invested in this whole fucking argument over a subjective historical tidbit anways, Jeebus. Go get some food you guys, I think your boy @pankrat is going low blood sugar.

This is where they were when they fought each champion:

Fitch was 19-2-1 (86.36% win rate) with 11 finishes (57.89% finish rate in 19 victories) over 6 years in one weight class. 1 verified top 10 win - earned his shot by beating unranked UFC newcomer Chris Wilson.

Okami was 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate in 27 victories) over 9 years across 3 weight classes. At least 4 verified top 10 wins - earned his shot by beating #4 ranked former title contender and multi-time former Pancrase Champion Nate Marquardt.

Fitch's numbers are a little magnified due to a small sample size (he had 10 less fights than Okami did), so my last post was to show you how both fighters' numbers looked at 32 pro fights into their careers. Even with Fitch's small sample size, their numbers are fucking ridiculously close, yet Okami has 4 top 10 wins to Fitch's 1. Fitch had only faced 1 top 10 fighter in his entire career prior to facing GSP. Okami faced 6 prior to Silva.

Okami had more experience against better competition and very similar stats, despite Fitch's smaller sample size of 10 less total fights.

The argument is that Fitch was such a better win, such a higher quality opponent, that a 5 round decision is somehow a better victory than a flawless 7 minute destruction. Where in the holy fuck are you guys coming to the determination that Fitch was just that many levels ahead of Okami? How? What facts support this? Tell us.