Which GOAT win was the best between these 2?

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Maybe Im mistaken. Correct me if Im wrong.

Didn't you claim GSP's win over Fitch, despite being by dec, was a superior performance than Silva stopping Okami?
That's what the thread is about.

So what you support such stance with?
Unless I missed something that you ellaborated on your opinion, doesnt your claim implies that Okami was on a inferior league as an opponent when not even a finish qualifies as a superior win than a judges decision, being both in a tittle fight??

Otherwise whats the basis for your claim? Let me know



¿?
What do you say here?:



You even add "easily" lol.
Easily!
C'mon...

You seem to be confused. If I say I think GSP's win over Fitch was better, that does not mean that I think Silva's win over Okami was not good. Okami had a very good career. I am not trying to diminish him.

 

[ThunderStruck]

I know Fioretti is a prick - not like you are anything else eh - but the facts he stated in his post are true and debunks this myth you and some other GSP fangirls have been pushing in this thread.

Fitch had only one top5 wins coming into his tittle fight - the undersized Sanchez by split dec who was #5 - and only beat one actual tittle contendr from that era in Alves.

People saying he cleaned out the division except for GSP is FALSE, like blatanly false.
Educate yourself:

In this very thread you have been proven wrong with :

1 - Rankings - Proven that despite both being #2 in their respective weight classes, Okami only stayed there for a few months in his career while Fitch stayed there 32 months.
2 - P4P Rankings - Fitch has been ranked top 10 p4p while Okami was was never even top 15 p4p.
3 - Records before and after the fight. Okami was on a 3 fights win streak, Fitch was on a 16 fights win streak. Okami lost his next fight, Fitch won his next 5 fights.
4 - Odds - Fight odds -600 Silva, -150 GSP shows that Fitch was a much greater challenge, despite the fact that Silva's previous fight was his very bad performance against Sonnen, a grappler (like Okami). If Okami was such a great challenger then the odds would have been much better.

All those were facts provided with links. Which you are still arguing with nothing but subjectivity.

Then you can factor those other facts :

1 - Fitch head to head win over Okami
2 - GSP beat Fitch, a big WW who claimed he was 195lbs in the octagon, while Silva beat a MW that can easily make WW (According to your own words).
3 - Demographics : at that time, the WW division had much more fighters competing worldwide than the MW division. Being ranked at WW was much much harder. MW was so thin that being in the UFC alone would make you top 15.

All those facts can be proven with links, while you resorts to nothing but subjectivity and bias due to your man-love for Okami.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

You dont need to especifically type "Okami sucks", and you know it, let's be serious.

If you are claiming a decision win is "easily superior" than a stoppage in a tittle fight whats the basis for such claim?
If it isnt level of competition what it is? What the basis to say is "easily superior"?

Any fight fan would agree than a stoppage > decision when the caliber of competiton is on par.
You claim otherwise, and you add "easily", while at the same time pretending you are not downpaying Okami....¿?.

Im just asking for honesty, Inga.

If you are asking for honesty, then you could start by honestly acknowledging that I never made any argument at all about a decision being better than a finish. Which is a better, a finish or a decision, is your argument. Not mine. I never said a single thing about a decision was better than a finish or vice versa. My argument was that Fitch had a better record coming into and coming out of the fight.

You could also honestly acknowledge that the comment I made which has you so fired up had nothing at all to do with Okami. Here:

I think GSP's win over Fitch was very much a legacy defining win.

That was in response to someone saying that neither win was legacy defining. I think GSP's win over Fitch is one of his very best, and that conclusion has nothing at all to do with how good Okami is or how important to Silva his win over Okami was.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because English is obviously not your native tongue, but you are behaving poorly toward me and your arguments about what I said are completely irrelevant.

 

[The-AxeMurderer]

Dang this dudes still goin

 

[Fioretti]

Fitch was 19-2-1 (86.36% win rate) with 11 finishes (57.89% finish rate in 19 victories) over 6 years in one weight class. 1 verified top 10 win - earned his shot by beating unranked UFC newcomer Chris Wilson.

Okami was 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate in 27 victories) over 9 years across 3 weight classes. At least 4 verified top 10 wins - earned his shot by beating #4 ranked former title contender and multi-time former Pancrase Champion Nate Marquardt.

The fact that this post keeps getting ignored by the rabidly delusional GSP fanboys says it all. Why are they conveniently overlooking facts? Why has nobody addressed or tried to refute this? Weird.

 

[SuperNerd]

Dang this dudes still goin

Yo, you see the two girls in the US Open finals are from Toronto and Montreal?

I've never been more excited for a Tennis bout.

War Fernandez

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Yeah I missunderstood that last post you quote at first. Let it go, I wasnt refering to that in my last replies to you.

So you've spent the past few pages calling me dishonest and making other personals attacks on me, and when you finally realize and admit that you've misunderstood and mischaracterized my point from the beginning, you want me to let it go?

If you had any integrity, you'd apologize.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

GSP over Fitch. At the time it was pretty obvious that if GSP wasn't champion Fitch would be. The same could not be said of Okami who had lost to Sonnen just 4 fights prior and won a split decision over Munoz. Fitch was on a 16 fight winning streak.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

So you've spent the past few pages calling me dishonest and making other personals attacks on me, and when you finally realize and admit that you've misunderstood and mischaracterized my point from the beginning, you want me to let it go?

If you had any integrity, you'd apologize.

Sorry I had missed this. Well, this is false. It's not an opinion, it's false:

Fitch was 19-2. Okami was 27-5. Add up the total number of fights and then divide the number of wins by the number of total fights. If you do that, you'll find that what I said was entirely accurate, and that what you said was mathematically incorrect.

How stupid are you? Do you know how to do the simple math required to calculate a win/loss record? Do you even arithmetic bro?

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

If you had any integrity, you'd apologize.





Fitch was 19-2. Okami was 27-5. Add up the total number of fights and then divide the number of wins by the number of total fights. If you do that, you'll find that what I said was entirely accurate, and that what you said was mathematically incorrect.

How stupid are you? Do you know how to do the simple math required to calculate a win/loss record? Do you even arithmetic bro?

The guy you are replying to is either a troll or just really stupid cause he is on my ignore list and most everyone I ignore is one, the other or both.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Fitch was 19-2-1 (86.36% win rate) with 11 finishes (57.89% finish rate in 19 victories) over 6 years in one weight class. 1 verified top 10 win - earned his shot by beating unranked UFC newcomer Chris Wilson.

Okami was 27-5 (84.38% win rate) with 14 finishes (51.85% finish rate in 27 victories) over 9 years across 3 weight classes. At least 4 verified top 10 wins - earned his shot by beating #4 ranked former title contender and multi-time former Pancrase Champion Nate Marquardt.

The fact that this post keeps getting ignored by the rabidly delusional GSP fanboys says it all. Why are they conveniently overlooking facts? Why has nobody addressed or tried to refute this? Weird.

People are ignoring this post for several reasons. One, you make an obvious error in Fitch's win rate. It was 90% not 86%, because you don't include NCs for readily apparent reasons. Second, your argument post affirms that Fitch had both a better win rate and a better finishing rate than Okami did.

Your real argument, appended to the end of the stats, is that Okami had better wins. Yushin did have some very good wins, which is unsurprising given that he was a very good fighter. However, Fitch maintained a number 2 ranking for several years in what was at the time the most stacked division in the sport. Yushin was ranked 2 in a lesser division for a few months.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The guy you are replying to is either a troll or just really stupid cause he is on my ignore list and most everyone I ignore is one, the other or both.

Haha. I agree that he is one of those two things. I cannot tell which. For his sake, I hope he is trolling.

 

[Volador]

GSP over Fitch easy.

Okami was coming off 3 wins and then lost again to Boetsch after losing to Anderson.

Fitch was coming off 16 wins and would win 5 straight after losing to GSP. He was the clear cut #2 for a long time. From March 2003 to December 2011 Fitch was 21-1-1-1. His only loss in those almost 9 years was GSP. Not to mention he actually beat Okami, and beat Shields, who also beat Okami.

 

[pankrat]

If you had any integrity, you'd apologize.





Fitch was 19-2. Okami was 27-5. Add up the total number of fights and then divide the number of wins by the number of total fights. If you do that, you'll find that what I said was entirely accurate, and that what you said was mathematically incorrect.

How stupid are you? Do you know how to do the simple math required to calculate a win/loss record? Do you even arithmetic bro?

So you rate caliber of competition based on arithmetics...bro?
You are that kind of shertard so now I understand your posts.

Okami had more top ranked wins going into the tittle fight contrariy to what you said, and of course dont apologize for your líes or admit your mistake. What a display of dishonesty you delivered here.
Keep pretending, dishonest coward

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

So you rate caliber of competition based on arithmetics...bro?

No, I calculate win/loss record based on arithmetic. When I correctly stated that Fitch had a better record coming into the GSP fight than Okami did coming into the Silva fight, you stupidly said that I was factually in error. You compounded that stupidity by accusing me of lying and cowardice (?) for accurately stating objective facts. Finally, you brought up the subject of caliber of opponents, which while an interesting and valid point of discussion, is completely irrelevant to the factual accuracy of my point about Fitch's record. You seem to be unaware that those are two distinct things and that they are judged differently.

 

[pankrat]

No, I calculate win/loss record based on arithmetic. When I correctly stated that Fitch had a better record coming into the GSP fight than Okami did coming into the Silva fight, you stupidly said that I was factually in error. You compounded that stupidity by accusing me of lying and cowardice (?) for accurately stating objective facts. Finally, you brought up the subject of caliber of opponents, which while an interesting and valid point of discussion, is completely irrelevant to the factual accuracy of my point about Fitch's record. You seem to be unaware that those are two distinct things and that they are judged differently.

I didnt talk about aritmetics, maybe you confused me with that Fioretti guy. Dont make mistake Im not the kind of nerd who log in a forum to discuss around aritmetics, much less without even looking if those numbers are rigged or fairly refflect the reality - I already pointed to the controvery/robbery in Shields and Joslin fights respectively...you dont care in the slighest about what actually happens in fights, just parrot void, empty numbers based on Ws and Ls on Fighfinder as long as they favour your GSP fanboy narrative. And we both know this you can stop pretending at this point.

> My points were based on credentials vs top competition, odds and rankings - not FightFinder W/L aritmetics - and proved that based on them, whether if you want to say one was beter over the other in no way such slight difference in caliber of competition justifies clamiing that stopping your challenger in a tittle fight is an inferior performance than taking it to the judges.

 

[CashMoney1991]

it's hard to say and I can see an argument for either or, I'd say GSPs win over Fitch was more impressive since Fitch was on a 16 fight win streak at the time and without GSP, Fitch would of gotten a belt, idk if Okami would of without Anderson

 

[gono btw]

Come on prime Sonnen lost to an old ass Tito who had once went on like a 50 losing streak..... idc if he tapped or whatever that's a sad loss. Prime Fitch lost to who???? GSP? Who else? fucking no one lol.
.

Hard to say. Okami had a much better resume at the time however Fitch was on a tear with the 16 fight win streak and his six fight win streak after when Okami was finished by Boetsch. Of course a finish is more impressive however GSP dominated a very good fighter in his prime. I’d have to go the Fitch win

Of course beating Fitch adds greatly to GSP's legacy. The fight was at the height of GSP's prime and it was against an opponent who otherwise was on 21 fight win streak if not for losing to GSP. Jon Fitch, by every objective measurement, was a top notch welterweight.

Fitch was 19-2-1 (86.36% win rate) with 11 finishes (57.89% finish rate in 19 victories) over 6 years in one weight class. 1 verified top 10 win - earned his shot by beating unranked UFC newcomer Chris Wilson.

In this very thread you have been proven wrong with :

3 - Records before and after the fight. Okami was on a 3 fights win streak, Fitch was on a 16 fights win streak. Okami lost his next fight, Fitch won his next 5 fights..

if Fitch was on a 16 fight winning streak.

Fitch was 19-2.
arithmetic bro?

Fitch was coming off 16 wins and would win 5 straight after losing to GSP. He was the clear cut #2 for a long time. From March 2003 to December 2011 Fitch was 21-1-1-1. His only loss in those almost 9 years was GSP.

Y´all were informed ITT that the Jeff Joslin fight, in the middle of that run, @ Freedom Fight in 2005, was a shameless hobbery, pro-wrasslin´ style.

Consequently, stop usin´that 16 Wins Streak angle, or counter that argument.

 

[Fioretti]

People are ignoring this post for several reasons. One, you make an obvious error in Fitch's win rate. It was 90% not 86%, because you don't include NCs for readily apparent reasons. Second, your argument post affirms that Fitch had both a better win rate and a better finishing rate than Okami did.

Your real argument, appended to the end of the stats, is that Okami had better wins. Yushin did have some very good wins, which is unsurprising given that he was a very good fighter. However, Fitch maintained a number 2 ranking for several years in what was at the time the most stacked division in the sport. Yushin was ranked 2 in a lesser division for a few months.

They're ignoring this post because it completely and utterly disproves the entire premise of the thread. He doesn't have a 90% win rate. NC's ARE included in win rate. He had 22 fights. 19 wins out of 22 fights is a win rate of 86.36%. Why would you discard a NC? It's not a win or a loss, but it's on the official record. The fact that it's on the official record means it's counted towards the number of total fights. If my post (it's not an argument, it's factual data) helped your argument or narrative it would be acknowledged and put on a pedestal. It doesn't though, does it? Nope! It just shows that they are two very similar and comparable fighters at the time in question, with the edge of quality leaning towards Okami since he had more experience and better wins. The slightly higher win and finish rate just proves that they are very similar in caliber.

You keep trying to say that Fitch was ranked #2 for "several years" in "the most stacked division" while Okami was ranked #2 in a "lesser division" for "a few months". That's simply just not true. Fitch had ONE top 10 win in his ENTIRE CAREER prior to facing GSP for the title. That fight happened 11 months before his title shot. He had one other win against an unranked UFC newcomer between entering the top 10 for the first time ever and getting a title shot. This wouldn't propel him to #2 yet. He wasn't even ranked #2 when fought GSP, he was actually #3 at best, as Thiago Alves had just beaten Matt Hughes immediately before the GSP/Fitch fight, and took the #2 spot. Funny that none of you actually realize this while posting your bullshit. Meanwhile, Okami had earned two title shots: the first by beating top 5 ranked former champion Evan Tanner, and the second by beating top 5 ranked former contender Nate Marquardt. THIS WAS PRIOR TO THEIR TITLE SHOTS. Fitch hadn't even been ranked #2 yet, playbois. He didn't get and hold that status until after he lost to GSP. If what you guys are pushing is true, that Fitch was the #2 for several years before fighting for the title, that would just show how unstacked that division really was, because he only had 1 top 10 win in his entire career, yet was the long standing #2? How would that even help your argument in regards to how stacked that division was? It makes it look pathetically weak, yet Okami (in the supposed weaker division) has to beat multiple top 5-10 ranked fighters, and claw his way to another title shot because the first got canceled due to injury. The facts do not help your biased and subjective opinions.

All of you are trying to base the quality of the Fitch win on things he achieved AFTER facing GSP. You got your timelines all fucked up. Decisioning Fitch at the time GSP did was not some amazing feat of accomplishment that somehow overshadows Silva's 7 minute KO of a more experienced fighter with a better resume. The facts I posted are ignored for this reason, as I said. It shuts your (not just you individually) entire narrative and premise the fuck down.

The only tricky part here is that Fitch had a win over Alves, who was the actual #2 at the time, but when Fitch beat Alves he was unranked. He went on a fucking tear after losing to Fitch and climbed the ranks like a madman. So, this gets misconstrued as a top 5 win for Fitch, which is not the actual case.

 

[pankrat]

it's hard to say and I can see an argument for either or, I'd say GSPs win over Fitch was more impressive since Fitch was on a 16 fight win streak at the time and without GSP, Fitch would of gotten a belt, idk if Okami would of without Anderson

That's an interesting take, rating the win based on whether if Fitch/Okami would have been champs in case GSP/Silva weren't around.

Its especulation but as far as we can tell:
- Both Fitch and Okami beat only one actual tittle contender from that era - Alves and Marquard respectively
- Okami was in more tittle eliminators (Franklin in an extremely close dec, KOed Tanner but missed the shot by injury, Marquardt by UD)
- Fitch/Okami had around same nº of ranked wins (not sure but I think it depends what source you look at, you can find a case for either of them)

- It's safe to say that if Okami and Fitch were matched up around that time (2008-2013), none of them would be a clear favourite over the other, at 170 or at 185. As a reference, when they eventually got matched up already past their pime, odds had Okami favourite despite coming off a KO loss, 3 Ls in his last 6, and moving down a weightclass for the first time in more than 8 years:
https://www.bestfightodds.com/events/wsof-24-fitch-vs-okami-998
- Okami had a highly controversial fight with Shields at WW in which he was the deserving winner in the eyes of most observers. It was Shields toughest opponent in that mytical run of him that ended with GSP, and Im pretty sure if they were matched up in a rematch....Okami would not have less favourable odds than Fitch against the same opponent.

I think all suggest that you could make a case for either of them, but in no way, shape or form, you can say the difference in caliber of competition between Fitch and Okami was big enough to justifiy claiming that stopping your opponent in a masterclass is an inferior performance than taking it to the juges, as lopsided as it was the decision.