Which branch is superior - The Air Force or The Navy?

[SMillard]

I've often wondered why the Bin Laden raid went to the Navy instead of the Army. I knew there was an Admiral in charge at the time so I figured that was why. Sounds like it just came down to personal preference as I'm sure either branch could have gotten it done just as easily.

Otherwise, I wonder why they didn't mix teams and go in with an Army/Navy unit? I guess that'd be overkill and unnecessary, but at the same time, mixed units have been known to take down badguys before, so it makes you wonder why they didn't do that for this too?

supposedly "Delta" is a mixed service unit, although predominately army. Or at least that's rumor I've seen. I have no info or proof to substantiate it, just some articles I've read and stuff. I'm sure there are mixed service units for specific tasks.
The cultures make up a big part of it, in the Navy you basically have the SEALS which are anomalies in the Navy, everyone else basically has a career that revolves around ships and aviation then you have this one group that stands alone not to disparage them but basically the SEALS are a bunch of guys doing what the Marines really should be doing. In the army the spec ops community went from being viewed with suspicion and distrust as "stand alone" groups treated like cowboys to being more integrated into regular operations, the whole story of how SF began and was eventually approved to wear the green beret is a great story of that. The Marines have always had the strangest and in some ways most practical view and approach to special operations, they just treated it like special training for a special mission(s) so basically once you are done as a Force recon Marine you are integrated back into the corps as a whole, the army went from treating spec ops people with contempt (There was a time when if you were SF as an officer you were pretty much resolved to the fact you weren't rising above Colonial) to now being a requirement for higher advancement like chief of staff or Joint chief.

The truth is the Bin Laden raid wasn't anything special from the trigger puller standpoint, what made it special was being so far into potentially hostile territory with minimum support. From the insertion standpoint it was some very good flying and from all the accounts I've read and watched even from the SEALS the army helo pilots were very impressive. So from that standpoint it was Army night stalkers transporting Navy SEALS We also don't really know if there were other elements mixed in from other services. It's very common for air force PJs or CAS to be mixed in with Ranger and SF groups, I'd be surprised if the SEALS didn't sometimes have the same thing, especially since our military has become more reliant on spec ops there's going to be some overlap and mixed personnel due to the limited number of available people to do the work.

 

[Phr3121]

Nice try my friend, but no cigar. Let's take it from the top:

Ranger School is SIGNIFICANTLY shorter than BUD/s (2 months vs 6 months) and when BUD/s students get to third phase (which in itself is 2 months long) they have to go ~21 hours a day, 7 days a week, non-stop.

Ranger school is 61 days long. 67 when I went through it with the Desert Phase. You do all those days at once. That is how you get the sleep and food deprivation. I lost 16 pounds in the process. BUDs training may be longer, but those boys get the weekends and sometimes week days off. That translates into time you can sleep, eat, get some pussy, and drink. So, how do you get sleep and food deprived that way? A school that maintains bankers hours can be 12 months long and be a 'cake walk'. Third Phase of BUDs is 'Land Warfare', 7 weeks. Not 61 days, and they still get time off.

As for SFQC, it varies in overall length depending on the individual and their specialty but they most definitely get weekends off.

No, You don't get weekends off in the 'Q' course either. Again, food and sleep deprivation. Plus you live with a 60+ pound rucksack on your back 90% of the time. The 'green' tick.

Navy diver school and BUD/s are two different things.

I was referring to BUDs diver training and the U.S. Army Special Operations diver school. No, not much difference in what they learn. If anything, the Army diver training is harder. Plus, SEALs are doing much of their operations on land these days. They love to play soldier. They haven't blown anything out of the water in years.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I don't know which is superior, but I'm damn sure I'd rather serve on an Air Force base than a ship. Being at sea for long periods involves much harsher working conditions.

 

[Phr3121]

@SMillard
Read your posts and will reply later. Good stuff. I've had a busy day and got my Jiu Jitsu class this evening. I'll address the M-60, Ranger school, Bin Laden raid, and Delta.

. Ranger school today is open to women and all U.S. Army MOSs. Yeah, crazy and stupid.
. U.S. Army SF were pretty busy in Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bin Laden raid, that is why the SEALs got the mission.
. Delta. Shit, 20 years in the U.S. Army and I still know very little about those boys and what they do. They don't wear tabs, patches or berets. No visible identifier. You would have to read their 201 file and look for the designator. One of the few visible giveaways is the unit shoulder patch. They actually fall under one of the U.S. Army's Special Forces units. I forgot which one. They are all Army or at least used to be.

@Adamant

 

[Adamant]

Ranger school is 61 days long. 67 when I went through it with the Desert Phase. You do all those days at once. That is how you get the sleep and food deprivation. I lost 16 pounds in the process. BUDs training may be longer, but those boys get the weekends and sometimes week days off. That translates into time you can sleep, eat, get some pussy, and drink. So, how do you get sleep and food deprived that way? A school that maintains bankers hours can be 12 months long and be a 'cake walk'. Third Phase of BUDs is 'Land Warfare', 7 weeks. Not 61 days, and they still get time off.



No, You don't get weekends off in the 'Q' course either. Again, food and sleep deprivation. Plus you live with a 60+ pound rucksack on your back 90% of the time. The 'green' tick.



I was referring to BUDs diver training and the U.S. Army Special Operations diver school. No, not much difference in what they learn. If anything, the Army diver training is harder. Plus, SEALs are doing much of their operations on land these days. They love to play soldier. They haven't blown anything out of the water in years.

Your assessment seems biased. Why would Army Combat Dive School be harder than Dive Phase at BUD/s? Especially when that is literally the bread and butter of the Navy SEALs? Makes no sense. And seeing as how the Army Dive School got help developing their program from the Navy, and - from what I hear - continues to model themselves after what the trainees go through in Dive Phase at BUD/s, there's no way it's harder. The location by itself where the training takes place is already more difficult in Cali than it is in Florida. So right there BUD/s is one up on you.

The SEALs continue to incorporate their dive training into most of the stuff they do post-second phase. Land warfare phase isn't purely land warfare. It's land warfare with combat diving on top of it, swimming at some point in the ocean almost every day. Anyway, Key West sounds nice compared to having to do it in the pacific. I'd take the Keys any day over dive training in Cali.

Bankers hours? Now I know you're being biased. BUD/s' goal isn't to do the whole starvation thing like the Rangers do. They have a different goal. And plus, with how hard the training is at BUD/s, it's probably way too dangerous to attempt that. Speaking of sleep deprivation, that's a hallmark of BUD/s training, in all phases.

BUD/s by itself is 6 months long and they will get a number of weekends off in first and second phase (mainly because of the absolute brutality of the training), but definitely not in third phase. The two months they spend doing land warfare is 7 days a week with roughly 3 hours of sleep a night. Sometimes they can go days without it during this phase. There are definitely no days off. And BUD/s isn't even the entirety of their training to become SEALs. That's just the beginning. Those who actually manage to graduate still have a long ways to go before earning their trident.

The SFQC is split up into something like 5 phases isn't it? Certain phases I'm sure go all out for 7 days a week, but of those phases is a language learning phase that can take 24+ weeks right? So during this phase you're saying they go 7 days a week? And you're implying that they go 7 days a week during all phases back to back? And with a green tick backpack? That's not what I've heard, and if that was true, that'd be over a year straight of going 7 days a week. 90% of that would be over 320 days with a backpack. Seems unlikely.

As for SEALs doing more and more work on land, you do know they specialize in sea, air, and land right? They are no longer just a waterborne unit. I'm pretty sure that stopped being the case when UDTs became SEALs. As for why they haven't blown anything up in the water lately (that we know about).... the muslim savages don't really operate a whole lot in the water, and seeing as how they are our main enemies right now, there's no need for it. So of course the SEALs have to switch to being more of a land-based unit. But tell me why the SEALs were called to rescue Captain Philips and not the Army?

If you're gonna say SEALs play solider, then you might as well say the SF combat divers are trying to play frogmen.

I'd just like to cap this off by saying I don't doubt for a second that SF and Rangers are badasses. There's no question. At the end of the day, they're all on the same team, regardless of branch. I respect all of them.

 

[Adamant]

@SMillard
Read your posts and will reply later. Good stuff. I've had a busy day and got my Jiu Jitsu class this evening. I'll address the M-60, Ranger school, Bin Laden raid, and Delta.

. Ranger school today is open to women and all U.S. Army MOSs. Yeah, crazy and stupid.
. U.S. Army SF were pretty busy in Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bin Laden raid, that is why the SEALs got the mission.
. Delta. Shit, 20 years in the U.S. Army and I still know very little about those boys and what they do. They don't wear tabs, patches or berets. No visible identifier. You would have to read their 201 file and look for the designator. One of the few visible giveaways is the unit shoulder patch. They actually fall under one of the U.S. Army's Special Forces units. I forgot which one. They are all Army or at least used to be.

@Adamant

Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous that they opened up Ranger school and other schools to women. The two women who supposedly passed Ranger school, from the things I've read, it only happened because a super high ranking officer dictated that at least one female had to pass. So it sounds political. I don't honestly think they could have done it had they been treated the exact same as the men.

I don't see why they can't just create an all-female combat Spec Ops unit and let them do their thing. Mixing with the guys on the same team is a horrible idea.

You're saying there wasn't enough Delta Force guys available to go take out Bin Laden? I really have to question that. If McRaven had went with the Army, you know they would have been there and ready to go. Plus, I've read a few books where it was said that the Delta guys complained about not getting to go. They were pissed off that it went to the SEALs. Allegedly. So you gotta think they woulda been ready for it had McRaven chose them. And I have no doubt they would have succeeded just as easily. They are the baddest of the bad that the Army has to offer.

Isn't this the Delta Force patch:

(Look about 3-4 inches below his name tag)

And the shoulder:

 

[the ambush]

Your assessment seems biased. Why would Army Combat Dive School be harder than Dive Phase at BUD/s? Especially when that is literally the bread and butter of the Navy SEALs? Makes no sense. And seeing as how the Army Dive School got help developing their program from the Navy, and - from what I hear - continues to model themselves after what the trainees go through in Dive Phase at BUD/s, there's no way it's harder. The location by itself where the training takes place is already more difficult in Cali than it is in Florida. So right there BUD/s is one up on you.

The SEALs continue to incorporate their dive training into most of the stuff they do post-second phase. Land warfare phase isn't purely land warfare. It's land warfare with combat diving on top of it, swimming at some point in the ocean almost every day. Anyway, Key West sounds nice compared to having to do it in the pacific. I'd take the Keys any day over dive training in Cali.

Bankers hours? Now I know you're being biased. BUD/s' goal isn't to do the whole starvation thing like the Rangers do. They have a different goal. And plus, with how hard the training is at BUD/s, it's probably way too dangerous to attempt that. Speaking of sleep deprivation, that's a hallmark of BUD/s training, in all phases.

BUD/s by itself is 6 months long and they will get a number of weekends off in first and second phase (mainly because of the absolute brutality of the training), but definitely not in third phase. The two months they spend doing land warfare is 7 days a week with roughly 3 hours of sleep a night. Sometimes they can go days without it during this phase. There are definitely no days off. And BUD/s isn't even the entirety of their training to become SEALs. That's just the beginning. Those who actually manage to graduate still have a long ways to go before earning their trident.

The SFQC is split up into something like 5 phases isn't it? Certain phases I'm sure go all out for 7 days a week, but of those phases is a language learning phase that can take 24+ weeks right? So during this phase you're saying they go 7 days a week? And you're implying that they go 7 days a week during all phases back to back? And with a green tick backpack? That's not what I've heard, and if that was true, that'd be over a year straight of going 7 days a week. 90% of that would be over 320 days with a backpack. Seems unlikely.

As for SEALs doing more and more work on land, you do know they specialize in sea, air, and land right? They are no longer just a waterborne unit. I'm pretty sure that stopped being the case when UDTs became SEALs. As for why they haven't blown anything up in the water lately (that we know about).... the muslim savages don't really operate a whole lot in the water, and seeing as how they are our main enemies right now, there's no need for it. So of course the SEALs have to switch to being more of a land-based unit. But tell me why the SEALs were called to rescue Captain Philips and not the Army?

If you're gonna say SEALs play solider, then you might as well say the SF combat divers are trying to play frogmen.

I'd just like to cap this off by saying I don't doubt for a second that SF and Rangers are badasses. There's no question. At the end of the day, they're all on the same team, regardless of branch. I respect all of them.

Don’t mind him. The SEALs are world renowned and legendary. It really boils down to whose vantage point you want to look from. To chip away at SEAL training due to weekends off reflects petty favoritism or bias. Hence my comment about the grass is not always greener on other prairies.

 

[Phr3121]

Never saw a claymore go off, I knew it was a devastating weapon. I've seen the "crowd control" version that has the rubber balls instead of the steel shot.

Ha, I've never seen that. Didn't know it even existed.

Rangers are for the most part honing and advancing skills they already have.

Being in a Ranger Battalion is very different from a regular Army Infantry unit. Those boys do some serious, brutal, hard training. They would go to Alaska during the winter for winter warfare training. They would go to Panama in the summer for jungle warfare training. It did take a toll on soldiers, and their families. The turnover was high. Most guys would do 1 to 3 years and get out of the Ranger Battalion, not the Army. I only went through Ranger school, I was not assigned to a Ranger Battalion. I was in a regular Infantry unit for 6 years. Like I mentioned above, Ranger school today is open to women and all U.S. Army MOSs. Yeah, crazy and stupid. I know a few Chaplains have gone through the course.

U.S. Army Special Forces was founded as a separate branch in 1984. No longer part of the Infantry, they started to wear the 'Cross Arrows'.

Why would Army Combat Dive School be harder than Dive Phase at BUD/s?

Well, for one, the class is way smaller. Instructor to student ratio is much different from BUDs. That translates into a lot more instructors giving you shit and watching your every move compared to BUDs. Army divers spend 10 weeks in Basic Combat Training before taking the Combat Diver Qualification Course for seven weeks. No, no weekends off, unless they have changed things.

I don't know if you have ever gone through 2 months of excruciating military training with no weekends off. It plays with your mind. It is a psychological game. I could put up with just about anything for 5 days of the week knowing I would have the weekend to recover. Sleep and eat. Things don't work like that in elite Army schools. I think the U.S. Navy has a different mentality when it comes to that. I'm not just saying this because I was a soldier in the Army. I have a lot of respect for Navy SEALs but the weekends off during training really makes the whole thing much, much easier.

BUD/s by itself is 6 months long and they will get a number of weekends off in first and second phase (mainly because of the absolute brutality of the training), but definitely not in third phase. The two months they spend doing land warfare is 7 days a week with roughly 3 hours of sleep a night. Those who actually manage to graduate still have a long ways to go before earning their trident.

True. To be fully qualified as a U.S. Army Special Forces soldier (Green Beret) the training time can be anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Depending upon your MOS within Special Forces Training and the process of completing those schools. Don't forget you have Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS) followed by the SFQC. I am not SF qualified. Check with @sub_thug on the details. He is currently with SF.

The SFQC is split up into something like 5 phases isn't it? Certain phases I'm sure go all out for 7 days a week, but of those phases is a language learning phase that can take 24+ weeks right? So during this phase you're saying they go 7 days a week? And you're implying that they go 7 days a week during all phases back to back? And with a green tick backpack?

No. I was referring to Phase 3: SF Tactical Combat Skills - 12 weeks and Phase 5: Robin Sage - 4 weeks of the SFQC. The 'green tick' during SFAS, which also has no weekends off.

Isn't this the Delta Force patch:

No, that's the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) patch, but yes, any Delta guys will wear that patch as a unit patch. But you also have way more soldiers who are not Delta wearing that patch. Delta is really the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment. ​

 

[BARNUM]

Which one impresses you more?

I was just watching The Hunt For Red October, a pretty awesome movie. And it got me thinking how impressive some of the Navy's tech is. But of course the Air Force is flat out awesome as well.

These 2 branches are definitely the "smart" armed forces. But which one is superior, in your opinion?

Navy has pilots
Navy has a broader reach
The Air Force need the Navy at sea I believe. The AF don’t have ships.
Is there a secret team in the AF like Seals in Navy?
Both are impressive with all their technology, Navy has more toys

 

[KnightTemplar]

Navy has pilots
Navy has a broader reach
The Air Force need the Navy at sea I believe. The AF don’t have ships.
Is there a secret team in the AF like Seals in Navy?
Both are impressive with all their technology, Navy has more toys

Never served with either, so I have no dog in this fight. But I'd say Pararescue are every bit as elite as SEAL's. PJ training takes almost two years to complete, and the attrition rate is north of 80%. PJ's have to achieve very high levels of fitness and master a broad skill set. Their training pipeline includes Army Airborne School, Air Force Combat Diver Course, Air Force Basic Survival School and Army Free Fall School. Their specialist Paramedic/EMT training alone takes well over a year. In addition to their core skill set, PJ's are intensively trained in various weapons.

I'd say the main difference between SEAL's and PJ's is the type of mission. SEAL's can treat battlefield casualties and PJ's can win a fire fight. But if you want a high value target killed or snatched, you'd send the SEAL's, Delta or Marine Corp Force Recon. If you want to rescue some poor guy who's bleeding out on the battlefield, you'd send PJ's.

Combat Air Control Team are Alpha AF too. One Staff Sgt received the Air Force Cross in Afghanistan after being shot in the chest. He was suffering from a sucking chest wound, and a Special Forces Medic had to insert a seven inch needle into his collapsed lung. He continued to call in close air support and air strikes

 

[SMillard]

Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous that they opened up Ranger school and other schools to women. The two women who supposedly passed Ranger school, from the things I've read, it only happened because a super high ranking officer dictated that at least one female had to pass. So it sounds political. I don't honestly think they could have done it had they been treated the exact same as the men.

I don't see why they can't just create an all-female combat Spec Ops unit and let them do their thing. Mixing with the guys on the same team is a horrible idea.

You're saying there wasn't enough Delta Force guys available to go take out Bin Laden? I really have to question that. If McRaven had went with the Army, you know they would have been there and ready to go. Plus, I've read a few books where it was said that the Delta guys complained about not getting to go. They were pissed off that it went to the SEALs. Allegedly. So you gotta think they woulda been ready for it had McRaven chose them. And I have no doubt they would have succeeded just as easily. They are the baddest of the bad that the Army has to offer.

Isn't this the Delta Force patch:

(Look about 3-4 inches below his name tag)

And the shoulder:

From what I've heard the women that passed the Ranger course did it on their own and most of the rumors about "special ladders" "instructions to pass at least one" and so on are nothing but rumors. I know everyone "knows someone that heard from someone" but the truth is if it were truly a problem there would have been a huge outcry. There was an outcry from active SF guys that the Q course has restructured to where they recycle people that fail a portion instead of dropping them like they used to. Basically the demands for more operators has driven them to make that adjustment and some of the old timers don't like it. Personally I had more of a problem with the 18X program since when I was in you had to be at least E 4 promotable or E 5 to apply for the Q course, (although had it been available when I went in I'd probably have tried it, so my gripe is probably more sour grapes even though I know most people wash out).
I have no problem with women in the courses as long as they maintain the standards. Let's be honest, it's not like there are going to be thousands of women doing it. For the most part it'll be a few women applying and even fewer women qualifying.
There were some "shake and bake" women's specialized training that went into women that were assigned in Afghanistan due to cultural constraints. It was found that the training was very limited and kind of pushed women through to meet personnel requirements, a few of these women were killed in operations. There was no correlation between the training they received and them being killed but there were criticisms that there were gaps in their training when it came to working with the teams they were assigned to. So the simplest solution is to integrate the schools and allow for a build up of qualified women over time instead of an instant solution "quick fix" course.

Again, the Ranger course is an infantry leadership course, a damn good one. The Ranger regiment/battalions are a totally different thing which many people get confused. As Prh2131 said they have opened it up to all kinds of MOSs, which again goes to what I said before about how at one point being a snake eater was looked down on when it came to career advancement, but now it's almost a requirement. So for many it's becoming a career requirement, at some point it'll probably be like jump school where you'll have people that qualify and never use it again like myself, relegated to being a 5 jump chump for the rest of my life.

Remember with Delta officially they don't even exist. There is no unit designator, they normally use a SF tab like the one you posted but it isn't the Delta unit designator. There are a few books by Delta operators but for the most part they keep pretty quiet just like the British SAS. I work with a guy that was a Navy SBD operator which basically drive the small boats to deliver the SEALs and the ongoing joke at this time is when you get your budweiser badge you also get your name added to a publishers' directory for when you want to write your book. The SEALs have a real problem with that right now but it seems to have died down some recently. When I was in you had to be at least an E 5 to apply to Delta, again I've read articles that they recruit from other services but I have nothing to confirm that.

As far as the operational commitments of Delta at the time of the Bin Laden raid, I'll take Prh2131 at his word that maybe they were too busy, although I'm sure if asked they would have had plenty of volunterrs. I'd always figured the Joint chief being a former SEAL and navy man had a lot to do with it. I know it's not the first time politics and pushing "your services agenda" may have had some part in it. Also it was an army unit that found Saddam so maybe they also wanted to share the love.

As far as who's school is harder, weekends off and so on. They are all comparable. I'd be willing to bet that anyone that passes BUDS/SEAL training would have the fortitude to pass the SF Q course, PJ superman course or the force recon and vice versa for any graduates of those other courses passing the others. I know the PJ course is very medical intense, you do actual time as a paramedic as part of your training to have practical experience. Though I also know that when I was in there were medics in the 82nd that were loaned out to fire rescue/EMT services so they could get practical experience, so I'm sure that it isn't too uncommon. There comes a point where you are no longer testing someone's commitment and mental/physical toughness and you are just wearing someone down to the point they are running a risk of injury or accident, the military tries to find that sweet spot and it appears each service found their own path to it. I know people crap on the PJ extended training day because it's only a 20 to 24 hour day, but I've noticed that the longer the situation goes the more you put yourself into autopilot where you just basically just keep droning on and on. An extended day of running, push ups, ruck marching, swimming, flutter kicks, extended distance farmer carries with fuel cans, carrying "body parts" to an extraction point and so on will pretty much find out just as much about a person as the BUDS hell week.

 

[SMillard]

Ha, I've never seen that. Didn't know it even existed.



Being in a Ranger Battalion is very different from a regular Army Infantry unit. Those boys do some serious, brutal, hard training. They would go to Alaska during the winter for winter warfare training. They would go to Panama in the summer for jungle warfare training. It did take a toll on soldiers, and their families. The turnover was high. Most guys would do 1 to 3 years and get out of the Ranger Battalion, not the Army. I only went through Ranger school, I was not assigned to a Ranger Battalion. I was in a regular Infantry unit for 6 years. Like I mentioned above, Ranger school today is open to women and all U.S. Army MOSs. Yeah, crazy and stupid. I know a few Chaplains have gone through the course.

U.S. Army Special Forces was founded as a separate branch in 1984. No longer part of the Infantry, they started to wear the 'Cross Arrows'.

A great example of the rubber ball claymore is in the movie Jackass 2, go to youtube they have it as Jackass 2 rubber ball mine clip. Those stoners earned their dollar that day.

When i was in there was supposed to be a one year limit in a Ranger battalion but they were always low on new people so they'd keep them. They really don't want people to stay in the regiment for more than the three years, too much wear and tear on the body. The first unit I was in had a few Ranger washouts, one was a guy that got drunk the night of the Grenada invasion basically didn't show up, another guy passed out during a sandbag run and basically said "screw this shit" so they bounced him, a third guy was dropped for unknown reasons was always curious about him since he was a very squared away soldier. The drunk guy was a shitbird, he was getting processed out when I left that unit, the guy never rose above E 1 (he'd been demoted at least twice that I knew of) the sandbag guy ended up being a corporal but there was nothing extraordinary about him, the last guy I never figured it out, he came to us an E 2 (so he must have been demoted, in fact I'd have bet money on it by the way he carried himself) but uniform and boots were always above and beyond as far as being pressed and shined. PT scores and rifle qualifications always in the upper third of the unit, He was a good guy from what little conversation I had with him, hope he ended up getting his career back on track after whatever happened and/or he did.
I never heard about SF being a separate branch, I know they were created back in the 50's and they called the first unit the 10th Special Forces because they wanted the Soviets to think there were at least 9 other detachments. Then the second one was called the 77th, guess they were really trying to blow the Soviet's minds. The whole green berets thing actually started out as kind of a joke. A group wore them to a retirement ceremony at Bragg and everyone thought they were a foreign delegation. The base commander then forbade them to wear them as official uniform wear ever again. They still did, normally in the field which after having worn a maroon beret for a very short time after graduating jump school I can tell you berets suck at keeping your head warm. Finally Kennedy approved the berets, then everyone pretty much stopped wearing them until they became an official headgear. Basically if it was acceptable they didn't want to wear them. At least that's how I remember it from the SF museum at Bragg, one of the few "cultural" things I did at Bragg and the great FayetteNam area. The museum was awesome, anyone that's interested there is a UDT/SEAL museum in Ft Pierce, Florida about an hour north of West Palm Beach. The Bragg SF museum is restricted since it's on the military base but the UDT/SEAL one is open to the public since it's a privately owned place.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Paging. @SMillard

 

[BARNUM]

Never served with either, so I have no dog in this fight. But I'd say Pararescue are every bit as elite as SEAL's. PJ training takes almost two years to complete, and the attrition rate is north of 80%. PJ's have to achieve very high levels of fitness and master a broad skill set. Their training pipeline includes Army Airborne School, Air Force Combat Diver Course, Air Force Basic Survival School and Army Free Fall School. Their specialist Paramedic/EMT training alone takes well over a year. In addition to their core skill set, PJ's are intensively trained in various weapons.

I'd say the main difference between SEAL's and PJ's is the type of mission. SEAL's can treat battlefield casualties and PJ's can win a fire fight. But if you want a high value target killed or snatched, you'd send the SEAL's, Delta or Marine Corp Force Recon. If you want to rescue some poor guy who's bleeding out on the battlefield, you'd send PJ's.

Combat Air Control Team are Alpha AF too. One Staff Sgt received the Air Force Cross in Afghanistan after being shot in the chest. He was suffering from a sucking chest wound, and a Special Forces Medic had to insert a seven inch needle into his collapsed lung. He continued to call in close air support and air strikes

Thank you my brother!! Interesting stuff. You learn something new everyday, I appreciate it!!

 

[SMillard]

Paging. @SMillard

That's awesome, revenge of the puddle pirates!!!

I'd heard that of all the basic trainings the Coast guard's was actually second only to the Marines as far as difficulty. Had a friend in high school that went in the Coast Guard, he'd send letters bitching about how much it sucked during basic. Once he was at his duty station his letters were a 180, he absolutely loved it.

 

[Sir Galahad]

That's awesome, revenge of the puddle pirates!!!

I'd heard that of all the basic trainings the Coast guard's was actually second only to the Marines as far as difficulty. Had a friend in high school that went in the Coast Guard, he'd send letters bitching about how much it sucked during basic. Once he was at his duty station his letters were a 180, he absolutely loved it.

LOL. @SMillard

 

[Doughbelly]

Sorry, saw the thread title and burst out laughing IRL

 

[lifelessheap]

Holy shit! I see your location...i used to live in Vacaville, and Fairfield. Dude are you at Travis????

Cowtown? lmao, NorCal scum.

I've always liked Beale AFB. It was close to me, and.... you know... cows?

Nothing like having an AFB with endless cows grazing. Such a fucking Central Valley hick Norcal thing.

 

[mb23100]

That's awesome, revenge of the puddle pirates!!!

I'd heard that of all the basic trainings the Coast guard's was actually second only to the Marines as far as difficulty. Had a friend in high school that went in the Coast Guard, he'd send letters bitching about how much it sucked during basic. Once he was at his duty station his letters were a 180, he absolutely loved it.

Of my friends that joined out of high school the only one that liked the military was the one that joined the Coast Guard.

 

[Adamant]

Of my friends that joined out of high school the only one that liked the military was the one that joined the Coast Guard.

Perhaps he got the job he wanted and really ended up liking it and the others got stuck with something they didn't want or didn't intend?

I know people like to make jokes at the expensive of the USCG, but their basic training is no joke. The intensity is nearly to the level of Marine Corps boot camp.

On the flip side, you show up to Air Force BMT and it's like arriving at summer camp.