Whey protein converting to glucose, insulin spikes, and Dr. John Berardi's response.

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Glen Sonnabend, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Glen Sonnabend Amateur Fighter

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    After reading an article on T-nation last night I came across an interesting paragraph:

    Whey is absorbed very rapidly (and therefore poorly), and contains amino acids that are quickly converted to glucose upon ingestion. This spikes your blood sugar, which is not what you want if you're trying to get over insulin sensitivity.

    Link to the full article: http://www.t-nation.com/article/most..._created_equal


    In response to this I posted a link to the article on the Precision Nutrition forums and this was Dr. Berardi's response:

    "All foods cause an insulin spike...and in some cases, even smelling a food causes an insulin spike. However, the magnitude of the spike is what's important.

    Now, I don't have the data on hand as to how much insulin is released but I'm guessing it's not the same magnitude as eating a big carby meal. However, let us know what you find.

    Further, in this article, the author is saying just taking whey alone in water causes this. If you're following PN, it's unlikely that you're doing this."

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    I searched for some other studies but could not find anything testing blood sugar before and after consuming whey alone, however I learned that consuming whey protein (and other milk proteins) with a carb source increases the insulin response greater than consuming the indentical carb meal with a non milk source of protein.

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494021

    * Milk components affecting the glucose and insulin responses include carbohydrates and proteins. Milk carbohydrates have low GI, while the milk proteins casein and whey may have insulinogenic properties by activating the incretin system.
    * Milk proteins contained in the whey component (resulting in release of the amino acids leucine, valine, isoleucine, and lysine) may be primarily responsible for the insulinogenic properties of milk products.

    __________________________________________________________________________________

    Just some information that could prove useful, and for anyone concerned about insulin sensitivity or people OCD about their diet like me.
     
  2. joshetc butthole hurts from teh gay

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    I think berardi is right.. but it isn't just whey protein. Anything could have the same effect. The magnitude of the insulin elevation is what matters, anyway. Obviously we can't just stop eating to prevent insulin spikes. No option is perfect, from that perspective, so we make the best choice possible.
     
  3. MikeMartial Black Belt

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    Great post, thanks Sonnablend
     
  4. JSN choo-CHOO!

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    good thread. interesting.
     
  5. KillerTKO Blue Belt

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    Yeah, i didnt realise this until now but JB put it in a way which makes it simple to understand. Anything will cause this but its just a case of choosing the better options to minimize the spike which as JB says and i wouldnt expect it to be that the whey causes a spike anywhere near the same level as a high carb meal...
     
  6. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Its nothing more than the Glycemic response. As Dr. Berardi said. it comes from any food, nothing to get worried about.
     
  7. Pixelsurgeon Orange Belt

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    Ok...but arent we looking to replenish glucose stores post workout? Wouldnt an insulin spike aid in quicker recovery? Or are we talking about using whey as a meal replacement?
     
  8. stylesbjj** Banned Banned

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    link to JB's responce?
     
  9. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Replenish at what rate? How long again before another physical activity? Insulin spikes are arguable both ways as being needed or not needed. No one mentioned whey as a meal replacement. Why would they do that when it is in and out of you for beneficial means in a matter of 30-45 minutes.
     
  10. bubbleboyjones Belt Purple

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    Exactly ...I really it wouldn't be anything wrong with the spike since thats what the Whey is best used for....PWO nutrition.


    Personally I dont care much for Whey as a an actual meal replacement(Non PWO)...take food any day.
     
  11. bubbleboyjones Belt Purple

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    People do use Whey shakes throughout the days as a "meal"
     
  12. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Those people are making a mistake. There isn't even a point to argue on that. Milk, egg, casein, etc is what should be used in any "meal replacement". Just because people do it, doesn't mean it is correct
     
  13. Pixelsurgeon Orange Belt

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    If your goal is muscle gain, wouldnt you want to get amino acids to your muscles asap after a workout? Wouldnt you want to replenish your glucose stores to spare amino acids from being used for ATP? Wouldnt you want to use the insulin response to accomplish this more quickly? If you look at what the top level natural bodybuilders are doing, they all seem to go with whey + dextrose (or some other high glycemic carb) PW and have achieved incredible results. I personally have been practicing this for my 8 years of training and never gone over 12% BF in the offseason. So whats the problem with taking whey PW?
     
  14. bubbleboyjones Belt Purple

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    Not disagreeing with you but you were acting like it doesn't occur regularly. Heres an example here.


    Ryan Reynolds nutrition for Blade


    http://www.sixpacknow.com/ryan_reynolds_workout.html


    He's using whey protein shakes as standalone meals. Tim Sylvia had protein shakes also listed as stand alone meals but I dont know if it was whey.
     
  15. bubbleboyjones Belt Purple

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    I think Vedic was talking about using whey in meals besides PWO meal.
     
  16. Vedic Purple Belt

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    *sigh* never said it doesn't happen. I said it is improper not needed, and wasted.

    I've seen alchoholics get big and ripped. Would I tell someone to do it? No. Would I argue the logic like you did? No, its the old jumping off the bridge parable.
     
  17. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Aminos are used before anything else. its simple uses of the small intestines. Insulin responses is not needed. Don't make things more complicated than they are. Glut4 receptors and anabolism is primed PWO regardless of insulin.

    Your way may work for some, not for others. Thats the way with everything.

    Nothing wrong with whey PWO, never said there was.
     
  18. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.




    The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.

    Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worried so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.
     
  19. Pixelsurgeon Orange Belt

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    I agree with you. However, if you were to only consume protein PW versus a carb protein mixture (not saying this is what you are recommending) wouldnt your body use some of those AA's to replenish glycogen stores via gluconeogenesis instead of its intended purpose?
     
  20. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Why would you do that? Yes and no. Some would be wasted but not all. Aminos are used first and foremost. To the small intestine it doesn't matter if it is coming with dextrose, or rice, aminos will be taken first and foremost.

    All food has a use, and waste ratio. Come on we all know that. Speed of this insulin spike will have nothing to do with amino absorption. The first 30-60 minutes is set in motion by physiological rules that aren't maligned or altered due to ingestion of certain types of carbs, causing a supposed response, that is already there.

    Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids.
     

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