When people ask for examples of institutional racism...

[panamaican]

Dude, no one is going to read 83 pages to respond to a sherdog post, you must know this.

Just find a different article that actually contains information.

Your currently linked article just basically assumes people are going to take their word for it.

Maybe people should be reading 83 pages, instead of puff pieces on complex subjects. Perhaps reading source material is better than reading everything after it's been churned through the prism of whatever partisan media source people prefer.

My currently linked article doesn't make any assumptions. It links to the opinion as well. It lays exactly what happened and exactly why it was overturned. There's nothing wrong with it as an informative article on the subject.

There's something contradictory in your request. The Slate article isn't detailed enough (despite having links in it) but the legal opinion itself is too detailed to bother reading. What more can I do to give you the tools necessary to inform yourself and then proffer an opinion?

 

[nixkid]

According to federal labor law, you have to show a photo ID to every new employer to prove you are legal to work in this country.

How the fuck is that not racist yet asking for an ID at the polls is?

If certain people are less likely to have the proper ID, then they are probably less likely to be a productive member of society.

And to that I say... fuck 'em.

Read the fucking thread.

And since we are now in the business of allowing the government to decide which people are worthy of voting based on some arbitrary assumption of how productive they are..I'd like to propose that your voting rights be revoked based on the fact that you tend to comment on things that you haven't taken the time to fully understand which leads me to believe that you would make rash and irrational voting decisions.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Oh yea, okay. I can't show you any studies that prove that voter fraud is widespread but trust me, it is because I REALLY WANT IT TO BE.

Either way, give me one good reason why they'd eliminate a form of ID that WAS valid under a law they passed. Based on their feelings that maybe someone might be using it to vote illegally? And that is an acceptable answer to you?

Why are they reducing early voting and eliminating pre-registration?

Like I said...everything else that they are trying to change seems unnecessary.

I think that all states should require a state issued photo ID though and have always thought that.

Examples of voter fraud? It happens all of the time. Maybe some of these measures are to stop ACORN from their past election shenanigans?

Posting from a phone so typing is a pain in the ass but here are a few examples


http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=2216


September 29, 2008:Voter-Registration Fraud in Florida and New Mexico (ACORN)

The taxpayer-financed community group known for its fraudulent national voter registration drives has struck again, this time submitting forged applications in the key battleground state of Florida where it has signed up tens of thousands of new voters for the upcoming election.

Just last week the Chicago-based Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), which incidentally endorses Barack Obama, got busted for submitting more than 1,000 fraudulent voter registration cards in New Mexico’s most populous county (Bernalillo).

ACORN is notorious for falsifying information to register new voters and has been caught doing so in Milwaukee, Missouri, Ohio, North Carolina and Colorado to name a few. Last year the group settled the largest case of voter fraud in the history of Washington State after seven workers were caught submitting about 2,000 fake registration forms.

Its latest scam was discovered in two north Florida counties (Seminole and Orange) where ACORN staffers submitted multiple duplicate registrations on behalf of six separate voters. One individual had 21 duplicate applications, according to the Election Supervisor in Orange County. (Source) and (Source) and (Source)

July 27, 2007: Voter-Registration Fraud in Washington State(ACORN)

Workers accused of concocting the biggest voter-registration-fraud scheme in [Washington] state history said they were under pressure from the community-organizing group that hired them to sign up more voters, according to charging papers filed Thursday.

To boost their output, the defendants allegedly went to the downtown Seattle Public Library, where they filled out voter-registration forms using names they made up or found in phone books, newspapers and baby-naming books. One defendant "said it was hard work making up all those cards," and another "said he would often sit at home, smoke marijuana and fill out cards," according to a probable-cause statement written by King County sheriff's Detective Christopher Johnson.

Prosecutors in King and Pierce counties filed felony charges Thursday against seven employees of ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, claiming they turned in more than 1,800 phony voter-registration forms, including an estimated 55 in Pierce County.

Most of the alleged fraud took place in King County, whose Elections Canvassing Board on Thursday revoked 1,762 voter registrations filled out by ACORN canvassers. Most of the registrations used the addresses of Seattle homeless shelters. (Source) and (Source)

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2016/05/25/cbs-uncovers-voter-fraud-in-la-n2168330

A comparison of records by David Goldstein, investigative reporter for CBS2/KCAL9, has revealed hundreds of so-called dead voters in Southern California, a vast majority of them in Los Angeles County. “He took a lot of time choosing his candidates,” said Annette Givans of her father, John Cenkner. Cenkner died in Palmdale in 2003. Despite this, records show that he somehow voted from the grave in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010. But he’s not the only one. CBS2 compared millions of voting records from the California Secretary of State’s office with death records from the Social Security Administration and found hundreds of so-called dead voters. Specifically, 265 in Southern California and a vast majority of them, 215, in Los Angeles County alone. The numbers come from state records that show votes were cast in that person’s name after they died. In some cases, Goldstein discovered that they voted year after year.

Countless examples are out there and for some reason voter fraud overwhelming favors the democrats. Hmmmm........

 

[Renard]

If low-income whites were voting democrat en masse the same way blacks do, do you think republicans would refrain from plotting something to prevent them from voting just because they're white? You bet your ass they'd try to stop them from voting. If low-income blacks were voting republican en masse, would the republicans try to plot something to prevent them from voting because they hate their skin? No they wouldn't. So then you have to admit the reason is not racial in nature.

 

[RIPWarrior]

Many black people had a form of ID that was completely acceptable until they changed the law. Why did they change the law?

Why does everyone else have this special ID?

 

[7437]

Maybe people should be reading 83 pages, instead of puff pieces on complex subjects. Perhaps reading source material is better than reading everything after it's been churned through the prism of whatever partisan media source people prefer.

My currently linked article doesn't make any assumptions. It links to the opinion as well. It lays exactly what happened and exactly why it was overturned. There's nothing wrong with it as an informative article on the subject.

There's something contradictory in your request. The Slate article isn't detailed enough (despite having links in it) but the legal opinion itself is too detailed to bother reading. What more can I do to give you the tools necessary to inform yourself and then proffer an opinion?

You could day institutional racism is not real. Ill bet that would work. Wouldnt even need a citation

 

[IndyCovaHart]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess an EBT card or a former correctional inmate ID were unacceptable forms of identification. Lol

 

[nixkid]

Like I said...everything else that they are trying to change seems unnecessary.

I think that all states should require a state issued photo ID.

Examples of voter fraud? It happens all of the time.

Posting from a phone so typing is a pain in the ass but here is an example

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2016/05/25/cbs-uncovers-voter-fraud-in-la-n2168330

A comparison of records by David Goldstein, investigative reporter for CBS2/KCAL9, has revealed hundreds of so-called dead voters in Southern California, a vast majority of them in Los Angeles County. “He took a lot of time choosing his candidates,” said Annette Givans of her father, John Cenkner. Cenkner died in Palmdale in 2003. Despite this, records show that he somehow voted from the grave in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010. But he’s not the only one. CBS2 compared millions of voting records from the California Secretary of State’s office with death records from the Social Security Administration and found hundreds of so-called dead voters. Specifically, 265 in Southern California and a vast majority of them, 215, in Los Angeles County alone. The numbers come from state records that show votes were cast in that person’s name after they died. In some cases, Goldstein discovered that they voted year after year.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=2216


September 29, 2008:Voter-Registration Fraud in Florida and New Mexico (ACORN)

The taxpayer-financed community group known for its fraudulent national voter registration drives has struck again, this time submitting forged applications in the key battleground state of Florida where it has signed up tens of thousands of new voters for the upcoming election.

Just last week the Chicago-based Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), which incidentally endorses Barack Obama, got busted for submitting more than 1,000 fraudulent voter registration cards in New Mexico’s most populous county (Bernalillo).

ACORN is notorious for falsifying information to register new voters and has been caught doing so in Milwaukee, Missouri, Ohio, North Carolina and Colorado to name a few. Last year the group settled the largest case of voter fraud in the history of Washington State after seven workers were caught submitting about 2,000 fake registration forms.

Its latest scam was discovered in two north Florida counties (Seminole and Orange) where ACORN staffers submitted multiple duplicate registrations on behalf of six separate voters. One individual had 21 duplicate applications, according to the Election Supervisor in Orange County. (Source) and (Source) and (Source)

July 27, 2007: Voter-Registration Fraud in Washington State(ACORN)

Workers accused of concocting the biggest voter-registration-fraud scheme in [Washington] state history said they were under pressure from the community-organizing group that hired them to sign up more voters, according to charging papers filed Thursday.

To boost their output, the defendants allegedly went to the downtown Seattle Public Library, where they filled out voter-registration forms using names they made up or found in phone books, newspapers and baby-naming books. One defendant "said it was hard work making up all those cards," and another "said he would often sit at home, smoke marijuana and fill out cards," according to a probable-cause statement written by King County sheriff's Detective Christopher Johnson.

Prosecutors in King and Pierce counties filed felony charges Thursday against seven employees of ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, claiming they turned in more than 1,800 phony voter-registration forms, including an estimated 55 in Pierce County.

Most of the alleged fraud took place in King County, whose Elections Canvassing Board on Thursday revoked 1,762 voter registrations filled out by ACORN canvassers. Most of the registrations used the addresses of Seattle homeless shelters. (Source) and (Source)

Voter Registration fraud is not the same as voter fraud. ACORN paid people to canvas the streets and register voters. They paid per registration. Some of their employees decided to cut corners and turn in registrations that they faked. There is no proof that any of these faked registrations made it onto voter rolls or that any ballot was cast under those names. The second ACORN basically says that.

In the second example of dead people voting, isn't the obvious answer to that problem to do a better job of purging deceased people from the voter rolls. Wouldn't that make more sense?

 

[Hans Gruber]

Voter Registration fraud is not the same as voter fraud. ACORN paid people to canvas the streets and register voters. They paid per registration. Some of their employees decided to cut corners and turn in registrations that they faked. There is no proof that any of these faked registrations made it onto voter rolls or that any ballot was cast under those names. The second ACORN basically says that.

In the second example of dead people voting, isn't the obvious answer to that problem to do a better job of purging deceased people from the voter rolls. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Will respond later when at a computer. Curse you for making me typ3 this on a phone.

 

[nixkid]

So they filled out thousands of applications for fun. You have got to be kidding me

No, they filled out thousands (about 2000) of applications to get paid. ACORN paid employees PER REGISTRATION. It was easier and more profitable to sit at home and fake registrations than it was to go out and try to get legitimate ones. Now, maybe paying employees per registration was a bad idea (it was..clearly) but it doesn't prove some nefarious plot by ACORN like you are suggesting. What would be the point of ACORN intentionally faking registrations when these faked registrations would be easily caught by the secretary of state's office and no one would ever vote under these fake names?

 

[nostradumbass]

What a bunch of a bullshit.

You are completely leaving out the detail that they conducted a study of voting behavior that included behavior BY RACE. And then they started restricting behavior that black voters exhibited. For instance...they cut back on Sunday voting. Why? Because many black churches provide vans on Sundays before election day to take their parishioners to vote.



So I guess people who want to vote on Sunday are "irresponsible, non productive citizens"?

If they can't get their shit together enough to meet the very basic requirements, then yeah. It is a generalization about black people that they can't do what everyone else does. They are still allowed to vote, and their vote counts as much as anybody else's. These measures are a cheap political tactic hoping that some people will lose motivation at any inconvenience and just not bother voting. Why would race matter when each person gets one vote?

 

[7437]

If they can't get their shit together enough to meet the very basic requirements, then yeah. It is a generalization about black people that they can't do what everyone else does. They are still allowed to vote, and their vote counts as much as anybody else's. These measures are a cheap political tactic hoping that some people will lose motivation at any inconvenience and just not bother voting. Why would race matter when each person gets one vote?

They did meet the very basic voter requirements. Then the state did a study to find out how, and changed the rules to not allow it.

 

[Hans Gruber]

No, they filled out thousands (about 2000) of applications to get paid. ACORN paid employees PER REGISTRATION. It was easier and more profitable to sit at home and fake registrations than it was to go out and try to get legitimate ones. Now, maybe paying employees per registration was a bad idea (it was..clearly) but it doesn't prove some nefarious plot by ACORN like you are suggesting. What would be the point of ACORN intentionally faking registrations when these faked registrations would be easily caught by the secretary of state's office and no one would ever vote under these fake names?

They wouldn't get caught. Look up the voter experiment about an investigative group voting as "John Test" multiple times. 97% of the votes went through

 

[Renard]

If you speak to a Canadian, an Australian, a European, etc, they all need ID to vote. That's the norm, the baseline. Democrats are the ones pushing for something highly unorthodox. They do this because they realize a big portion of their base have no ID. So they try to strengthen their position by wrapping it in emotionally-charged rhetoric about racism, highly successfully. If blacks were voting republican en masse, the democrats would be the ones asking for mandatory voter ID.

 

[nixkid]

If they can't get their shit together enough to meet the very basic requirements, then yeah. It is a generalization about black people that they can't do what everyone else does. They are still allowed to vote, and their vote counts as much as anybody else's. These measures are a cheap political tactic hoping that some people will lose motivation at any inconvenience and just not bother voting. Why would race matter when each person gets one vote?

More bullshit. Because you're assuming that everyone is equally inconvenienced by the restrictions on voting. But that isn't the case. For example, many of the people going to those black churches are elderly black women. Many of them do not drive and they live in rural areas with shitty public transportation. Voting on Sunday when they can get on the church provided van might be the ONLY opportunity they have to vote. Another example, North Carolina doesn't have a voting leave law meaning an employer isn't required to give employees time off to vote. Many people work jobs where taking time off during a Tuesday is simply not possible and their employers are not required to accommodate them. These aren't issues of motivation.

 

[panamaican]

If you speak to a Canadian, an Australian, a European, etc, they all need ID to vote. That's the norm, the baseline. Democrats are the ones pushing for something highly unorthodox. They do this because they realize a big portion of their base have no ID. So they try to strengthen their position by wrapping it in emotionally-charged rhetoric about racism, highly successfully. If blacks were voting republican en masse, the democrats would be the ones asking for mandatory voter ID.

If we were talking about Canada, Australia, Europe then it would matter. But we're talking about the U.S. We have rules that say voting should be as easy as possible. Making things more difficult without a very good reason is generally not an acceptable course of action.

Is it easy to get a specific type of ID? Doesn't matter.

What matters in the U.S. is it's difficult for anyone and if so how difficult. That it's easy for 95% of the population doesn't outweigh if it's difficult for 5%. That's how we view these things. Other parts of the world can do it differently.

Someone once presented the simple solution to the problem: If you want them to have a specific ID...just mail it to them every year before election season. They get the ID without having to do anything and then there's no excuse for not having it come voting day.

 

[TheComebackKid]

You're missing the point of my original post. Allow me to walk you through it.

If this law had not been overturned, it would have disproportionately harmed the black vote...which was it's goal. But, on the surface, it would have looked like a regular voting regulation bill. Fast forward 60+ years and no one would have looked at the law as "institutional racism" because the causation behind the bill would have been buried in the past. But it's effects would still be relevant to those people in the future.

Instead of looking forward, we can apply the same analysis to the past. Laws that were enacted under Jim Crow with the specific intent of affecting black Americans. We wouldn't have the information to look at why they passed the laws they passed. At the time, there were fewer watchdog groups who would have challenged those laws. Fast forward 60 years, to the present, and the effects of the laws would be just as relevant as they were when they were enacted...even if most people are oblivious to the intent behind their creation.

This is the fundamental problem with institutional racism. The effect of the law can be attributed to non-racial cues when, in reality, the law was drafted to create that effect specifically in a racial group. That some members of the racial group aren't harmed or that some members of other racial groups are harmed doesn't change the "why" behind the law and the overall effect it was trying to create. You then end up with people who refuse to entertain the possibility that people who believed in racism might have written laws that harmed the races they didn't like. The NC law is insightful because you can extrapolate the effects of this type of legislating into the future, as opposed to only looking into the past. But I guess this is one of those things where if people don't want to wrestle with the implications, they'll just brush the whole topic aside.

I get the concept and agree with the implications that follows. But in order to consistently reference and base positions on it, saying its still a major problem today, well you need to be able to provide more than the occasional example IMO.

And examples that "disproportionally effect" are hard to establish. This one seems direct and clear cut given the race based research they conducted. But generally speaking those type of examples are really tough to argue and isn't going to move the needle very much.

 

[mtron929]

Even if the change was targetted to reduce the number of black votes, I don't think race is the main factor here. I suspect that the Republicans realized that blacks predominantly voted for Democrats and wanted to reduce this number. And I surmise that in a hypothetical scenario in which blacks predominantly voted for the Republicans, the changes would not have been enforced. Now, it still makes all of this a bit shady but it does add a different context to the situation. Basically, in politics where (a) a group of people overwhelmingly vote in one direction and (b) this group size is large, there are going to be movements to suppress the voice of that group, without really caring about the identity of that group (e.g. low income whites, females, Hispanics, etc.).

 

[nixkid]

They wouldn't get caught. Look up the voter experiment about an investigative group voting as "John Test" multiple times. 97% of the votes went through

Yeah, they would have gotten caught because they were caught. You think ACORN the organization had this grand conspiracy to register Katie Holmes to vote in Washington state using a homeless shelter as her home address? It wouldn't take a genius to realize those registration forms wouldn't pass muster and would be thrown out by the Secretary of State.

 

[oldshadow]

I cannot see how voter ID is racist unless they have laws making it hard for minorities to get ID.

Most other countries require voter ID.