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Law What's up with the authority on our retirement savings ?

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How is it possible all countries around the world are not letting you withdraw the money you were putting into your retirement account every month either by salary deductions or whatever.
I mean , cmon.
Its like we accepted that the goverment or the system whatever that is , is the primary authority over our retirment savings ?
Well I would say what would be fair is to let the person which was lucky enough to reach the retirment age to withdraw the whole amount he has at that moment on his account.
Why is that not like that , what's happening , is there a country on Earth withouth such pension rules ?
 
How is it possible all countries around the world are not letting you withdraw the money you were putting into your retirement account every month either by salary deductions or whatever.
I mean , cmon.
Its like we accepted that the goverment or the system whatever that is , is the primary authority over our retirment savings ?
Well I would say what would be fair is to let the person which was lucky enough to reach the retirment age to withdraw the whole amount he has at that moment on his account.
Why is that not like that , what's happening , is there a country on Earth withouth such pension rules ?

You can withdrawal from your 401k. Before 59 1/2 you must pay a penalty and also the deferred taxes.
 
How is it possible all countries around the world are not letting you withdraw the money you were putting into your retirement account every month either by salary deductions or whatever.
I mean , cmon.
Its like we accepted that the goverment or the system whatever that is , is the primary authority over our retirment savings ?
Well I would say what would be fair is to let the person which was lucky enough to reach the retirment age to withdraw the whole amount he has at that moment on his account.
Why is that not like that , what's happening , is there a country on Earth withouth such pension rules ?

This made me think about some sh*t going on with 401k's where essentially what entities want is access to the money to use it for investments, which means employees could tentatively lose the entirety of their 401k money before they even claim it because of the stupid decisions of some suit who doesnt want to Gamble their own money. When 401k's replaced profit sharing, many were unhappy because all they saw was..."well, we might give you this money." Whereas with profit sharing you just got it.

Moral of the story is that in a system of distinct economic classes where laws favor the higher ones, money is always going to flow up...and not even trickle down.
 
This made me think about some sh*t going on with 401k's where essentially what entities want is access to the money to use it for investments, which means employees could tentatively lose the entirety of their 401k money before they even claim it because of the stupid decisions of some suit who doesnt want to Gamble their own money. When 401k's replaced profit sharing, many were unhappy because all they saw was..."well, we might give you this money." Whereas with profit sharing you just got it.

Moral of the story is that in a system of distinct economic classes where laws favor the higher ones, money is always going to flow up...and not even trickle down.

Every 401k that I know about gives the employee options on where the $ is invested. It's not some suit that wants to gamble with other people's money, everyone makes their own choice on their investments. If you are worried about losing it all in the stock market, you can park it in cash or gold or whatever you want. Which is a horrible choice obviously for people with any knowledge at all of investing, but afaik every 401k out there has that as an option.
 
They want it kept in so you are at a higher rate of tax when you cash out form when the money was saved.
 
Every 401k that I know about gives the employee options on where the $ is invested. It's not some suit that wants to gamble with other people's money, everyone makes their own choice on their investments. If you are worried about losing it all in the stock market, you can park it in cash or gold or whatever you want. Which is a horrible choice obviously for people with any knowledge at all of investing, but afaik every 401k out there has that as an option.

There was something proposed to remove that choice. I'll have to look it up.
 
There was something proposed to remove that choice. I'll have to look it up.

I mean if that's true...holy shit that would be insane. I cannot imagine it ever coming to be.
 
Every 401k that I know about gives the employee options on where the $ is invested. It's not some suit that wants to gamble with other people's money, everyone makes their own choice on their investments. If you are worried about losing it all in the stock market, you can park it in cash or gold or whatever you want. Which is a horrible choice obviously for people with any knowledge at all of investing, but afaik every 401k out there has that as an option.

Yeah I've never seen a company pension plan that doesn't give the employee a myriad of self directed options.
 
They want it kept in so you are at a higher rate of tax when you cash out form when the money was saved.

If believe that then you should put your money 100% into the Roth portion of your 401k. I currently split mine about 50/50 of my contributions between the 2.
 
I mean if that's true...holy shit that would be insane. I cannot imagine it ever coming to be.

I had read about this vaguely a few years ago so how to even search for it was racking my brain. Apparently Eugene Scalia (Son of the "Constitutonal Originalism"..."I died in a donor-paid quail hunting trip" Antonin Scalia) was made Labor Secretary...a staunch employer-side litigator and the first of that ilk appointed to this position (very swampy if you ask me):

"One of the planned changes to retirement rules will open up 401(k) investments to high-risk, high-fee private equity funds. It’s a major break with past practices, but it wasn’t done through a formal rule process that would allow for scrutiny and public input.

Instead, in early June, the DOL sent a high-profile information letter to Pantheon Ventures, a private equity firm, codifying conditions, such as a 15 percent cap, for a 401(k) to invest in private equity. The letter formalized private equity’s entry into the 401(k) marketplace, creating a blueprint for copycats and sending shockwaves throughout both sectors.

Private equity is a type of hedge fund comprising private investors who buy privately held, struggling companies in order to rehabilitate or liquidate them, collecting extremely high fees and enriching shareholders either way. Direct investments in private equity and other types of hedge funds are typically restricted to high-net-worth individuals or institutions. This is because high-net-worth individuals and large institutional investors have extra, discretionary money to handle private equity’s huge risks, long-term illiquidity, astronomical fees, and “capital calls,” investor fundraisers demanded at the drop of a hat. In other words, high-net-worth individuals and huge institutional investors can afford to burn that money if the investment goes south.

The average retirement investor, however, has always been considered uniquely reliant on their savings, which is why ERISA’s fiduciary duty requires a very conservative investment strategy. Considering private equity’s many risks and costs, the government, until now, and 401(k) plaintiffs’ attorneys have largely opposed it in retirement plans.

According to Wally Okby, a senior analyst at Aite Group, the pool of available capital from high-net-worth investors for private equity has recently dried up. And considering the shrinking state of pensions, private equity is chomping at the bit to enter the $8.9 trillion 401(k) marketplace. “They’re looking for cash anywhere they can get it,” Okby said. “Therefore, they go to 401(k)s, where investors typically don’t understand what they’re investing into.”

The letter is part of a broader private-equity lobbying, pressure campaign, and creation of complicated fund structures designed to prey on more of Americans’ hard-earned savings. Clayton and other lawmakers have made several moves to lower barriers for private fund access to Main Street investors. On July 28th, one senior SEC director at a conference openly solicited the financial-industry attendants on what SEC rules should be changed to open up working people’s money to hedge funds and private equity.

The letter also comes in light of a recent SEC warning that some retail fund managers have been receiving undisclosed kickbacks from private-equity investments.

The industry has supported the letter on the disputed belief that private-equity investments outperform the stock market at large. George Gerstein, an attorney for the financial industry and co-chief of fiduciary governance at Stradley Ronon, believes that increased private-equity exposure will increase performance of retirement plans, especially as a counterweight to other economic headwinds. But a recent study at Oxford University found that, after fees, top private-equity funds have performed no better for pension funds over 15 years than if the money were passively indexed to the stock market.

Further, private-equity disclosures lack any standard date or metrics, so its disclosed performance data is inherently misleading, Roper argued."

So in theory fiduciary duty would at least provide some guard rail even if this bullsh*t went through...which is why Scalia wanted to change what fiduciary duty meant:

"Labor unveiled its second major shift, a proposed update to the breadth and depth of the retirement professional’s fiduciary duty — money managers’ requirement to provide the best possible service or face liability.

The proposed rule would reduce the fiduciary duty to cover fewer transactions and parties, opening up enormous loopholes wherein a retirement professional has to uphold their fiduciary duty.

Shockingly, it would also allow any retirement professional to receive third-party payments for their recommendations, so long as they adhered to an undefined “best interest” standard and didn’t “materially” mislead investors. This part of the rule is perhaps akin to a doctor being allowed to take kickbacks in exchange for prescribing certain pharmaceuticals. Scalia said his rule expanded “investor choice.”

Some statements of assessment of Scalia's positions:

Andy Behar, CEO of As You Sow, a nonprofit that rates the financial sector for its ethical standards, said that Scalia’s three most recent DOL rulemakings suggest a personal vendetta. “He’s couldn’t win as an attorney, so he’s changing the rules,” Behar said.

“Secretary Scalia is still working for his former clients,” said Barbara Roper, director of Investor Protection at the Consumer Federation of America. “This is a multipronged attack on Americans’ retirement security.”
 
How is it possible all countries around the world are not letting you withdraw the money you were putting into your retirement account every month either by salary deductions or whatever.
I mean , cmon.
Its like we accepted that the goverment or the system whatever that is , is the primary authority over our retirment savings ?
Well I would say what would be fair is to let the person which was lucky enough to reach the retirment age to withdraw the whole amount he has at that moment on his account.
Why is that not like that , what's happening , is there a country on Earth withouth such pension rules ?

You can withdraw money early or the entire thing at retirement if you wish.

It's really not smart to withdraw the entire thing at retirement though. Just withdraw what you need per month and let the rest stay in the account and accrue gains.

My uncle has been doing this for 6 years and basically has the same amount of money in the account as he started with at retirement. He'd have tens of thousands less if he just withdrew the entire amount at once.
 
I had read about this vaguely a few years ago so how to even search for it was racking my brain. Apparently Eugene Scalia (Son of the "Constitutonal Originalism"..."I died in a donor-paid quail hunting trip" Antonin Scalia) was made Labor Secretary...a staunch employer-side litigator and the first of that ilk appointed to this position (very swampy if you ask me):

"One of the planned changes to retirement rules will open up 401(k) investments to high-risk, high-fee private equity funds. It’s a major break with past practices, but it wasn’t done through a formal rule process that would allow for scrutiny and public input.

Instead, in early June, the DOL sent a high-profile information letter to Pantheon Ventures, a private equity firm, codifying conditions, such as a 15 percent cap, for a 401(k) to invest in private equity. The letter formalized private equity’s entry into the 401(k) marketplace, creating a blueprint for copycats and sending shockwaves throughout both sectors.

Private equity is a type of hedge fund comprising private investors who buy privately held, struggling companies in order to rehabilitate or liquidate them, collecting extremely high fees and enriching shareholders either way. Direct investments in private equity and other types of hedge funds are typically restricted to high-net-worth individuals or institutions. This is because high-net-worth individuals and large institutional investors have extra, discretionary money to handle private equity’s huge risks, long-term illiquidity, astronomical fees, and “capital calls,” investor fundraisers demanded at the drop of a hat. In other words, high-net-worth individuals and huge institutional investors can afford to burn that money if the investment goes south.

The average retirement investor, however, has always been considered uniquely reliant on their savings, which is why ERISA’s fiduciary duty requires a very conservative investment strategy. Considering private equity’s many risks and costs, the government, until now, and 401(k) plaintiffs’ attorneys have largely opposed it in retirement plans.

According to Wally Okby, a senior analyst at Aite Group, the pool of available capital from high-net-worth investors for private equity has recently dried up. And considering the shrinking state of pensions, private equity is chomping at the bit to enter the $8.9 trillion 401(k) marketplace. “They’re looking for cash anywhere they can get it,” Okby said. “Therefore, they go to 401(k)s, where investors typically don’t understand what they’re investing into.”

The letter is part of a broader private-equity lobbying, pressure campaign, and creation of complicated fund structures designed to prey on more of Americans’ hard-earned savings. Clayton and other lawmakers have made several moves to lower barriers for private fund access to Main Street investors. On July 28th, one senior SEC director at a conference openly solicited the financial-industry attendants on what SEC rules should be changed to open up working people’s money to hedge funds and private equity.

The letter also comes in light of a recent SEC warning that some retail fund managers have been receiving undisclosed kickbacks from private-equity investments.

The industry has supported the letter on the disputed belief that private-equity investments outperform the stock market at large. George Gerstein, an attorney for the financial industry and co-chief of fiduciary governance at Stradley Ronon, believes that increased private-equity exposure will increase performance of retirement plans, especially as a counterweight to other economic headwinds. But a recent study at Oxford University found that, after fees, top private-equity funds have performed no better for pension funds over 15 years than if the money were passively indexed to the stock market.

Further, private-equity disclosures lack any standard date or metrics, so its disclosed performance data is inherently misleading, Roper argued."

So in theory fiduciary duty would at least provide some guard rail even if this bullsh*t went through...which is why Scalia wanted to change what fiduciary duty meant:

"Labor unveiled its second major shift, a proposed update to the breadth and depth of the retirement professional’s fiduciary duty — money managers’ requirement to provide the best possible service or face liability.

The proposed rule would reduce the fiduciary duty to cover fewer transactions and parties, opening up enormous loopholes wherein a retirement professional has to uphold their fiduciary duty.

Shockingly, it would also allow any retirement professional to receive third-party payments for their recommendations, so long as they adhered to an undefined “best interest” standard and didn’t “materially” mislead investors. This part of the rule is perhaps akin to a doctor being allowed to take kickbacks in exchange for prescribing certain pharmaceuticals. Scalia said his rule expanded “investor choice.”

Some statements of assessment of Scalia's positions:

Andy Behar, CEO of As You Sow, a nonprofit that rates the financial sector for its ethical standards, said that Scalia’s three most recent DOL rulemakings suggest a personal vendetta. “He’s couldn’t win as an attorney, so he’s changing the rules,” Behar said.

“Secretary Scalia is still working for his former clients,” said Barbara Roper, director of Investor Protection at the Consumer Federation of America. “This is a multipronged attack on Americans’ retirement security.”

So...you're not posting this directly in relation to the earlier comment about "removing the choice", right? This is a totally different thing (still relevant to the topic obviously) that has nothing to do with your previous comment? I just want to make sure I'm understanding because you posted this in reply to my post (that was in reply to your previous one regarding the choice being removed).
 
So...you're not posting this directly in relation to the earlier comment about "removing the choice", right? This is a totally different thing (still relevant to the topic obviously) that has nothing to do with your previous comment? I just want to make sure I'm understanding because you posted this in reply to my post (that was in reply to your previous one regarding the choice being removed).

The aspect of removing choice is in that opening up 401k's to private equity literally had NO input from the public, from the people whose 401k's would suddenly be subject to that. It went straight to the financial sector, the intended changes were going to be pushed through, and suddenly 401k's could be at much much greater risk and without the safety net of fiduciary duty parameters.

When it comes to the average 401k holders what's notable is how little the options are changed, suggesting that 401k investors arent particularly savvy on these markets, and the average HR representative who presents the options isnt a financial manager. It appears Scalia's DOL was very aware of this and was poised to let the finance industry profit off of it.

I have a Cousin who has a Capital Investment Firm who does this sh*t and he targets the working class, people with 401k's and let me tell you, that guy is a vulture. I wouldnt let him manage my money.
 
How is it possible all countries around the world are not letting you withdraw the money you were putting into your retirement account every month either by salary deductions or whatever.
I mean , cmon.
Its like we accepted that the goverment or the system whatever that is , is the primary authority over our retirment savings ?
Well I would say what would be fair is to let the person which was lucky enough to reach the retirment age to withdraw the whole amount he has at that moment on his account.
Why is that not like that , what's happening , is there a country on Earth withouth such pension rules ?

It’s difficult to understand what you’re talking about.

Which government? Which countries?
 
The aspect of removing choice is in that opening up 401k's to private equity literally had NO input from the public, from the people whose 401k's would suddenly be subject to that. It went straight to the financial sector, the intended changes were going to be pushed through, and suddenly 401k's could be at much much greater risk and without the safety net of fiduciary duty parameters.

When it comes to the average 401k holders what's notable is how little the options are changed, suggesting that 401k investors arent particularly savvy on these markets, and the average HR representative who presents the options isnt a financial manager. It appears Scalia's DOL was very aware of this and was poised to let the finance industry profit off of it.

I have a Cousin who has a Capital Investment Firm who does this sh*t and he targets the working class, people with 401k's and let me tell you, that guy is a vulture. I wouldnt let him manage my money.

Isn’t is common sense to just put your entire 401k investment into a low cost index fund when you start working?
Is there much else to this?
 
Isn’t is common sense to just put your entire 401k investment into a low cost index fund when you start working?
Is there much else to this?

I don't know if I'd call that common sense. But it certainly is better.
 
The aspect of removing choice is in that opening up 401k's to private equity literally had NO input from the public, from the people whose 401k's would suddenly be subject to that. It went straight to the financial sector, the intended changes were going to be pushed through, and suddenly 401k's could be at much much greater risk and without the safety net of fiduciary duty parameters.

When it comes to the average 401k holders what's notable is how little the options are changed, suggesting that 401k investors arent particularly savvy on these markets, and the average HR representative who presents the options isnt a financial manager. It appears Scalia's DOL was very aware of this and was poised to let the finance industry profit off of it.

I have a Cousin who has a Capital Investment Firm who does this sh*t and he targets the working class, people with 401k's and let me tell you, that guy is a vulture. I wouldnt let him manage my money.

Okay but that's not actually removing the choice in the context of how we were discussing it. Don't get me wrong, the average person shouldn't be exposing their 401k to the volatility that's inherent in hedge funds. No way. I totally agree. And there's certainly some murkiness at play in terms of how someone's current investment selections might be affected (if for example someone had an active money manager handling their 401k's) and as mentioned in the article the "pay for play" situations that could arise when private equity wants access to a company's employees and tries to get it through influencing the board or whatever.

But this is really a smaller part of a larger discussion. The choice would still be there for those holding 401k's to take no part in anything having to do with private equity. The choice wouldn't be removed. What this highlights to me is how deficient this nation (and maybe others too, but definitely here) is with personal financial education. I cannot understand how it's not a requirement in high school. People need to better understand things like this so that they know what they're investing in, the benefits/risks, etc. At the very least at a high level view even if they aren't capable or interested enough to dig deeper.

And yeah there's the predatory aspect for sure, but while there could be some similarities...we aren't talking about people getting whacked for crazy interest rates at payday loan stores here. This isn't a situation where desperate people would make dumb decisions because they feel they have no other option. This would be greedy insiders being allowed access to capital (not their own) they maybe shouldn't have access to in order to take risks with money that shouldn't have that level of risk attached to it. And sure regulation is one way to thwart it, but educating those "at risk" would seem to make a hell of a lot of sense too. And it's not like you need to inundate everyone with so much info that it overloads them.
 
<WellThere>

Who would think that allowing the Government to have a say and control on your retirement would ever be a bad idea? I mean they are so good with budgets and spending. While I personally do max out my IRAs.... I decided long ago to hedge my bet with real estate and yes.... Gold and Silver ... and Bitcoin.
 
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