Whats the difference between swarmer and brawler?

[Pierce 34]

I've people call pressure fighters who like to stand in the pocket and trade as "brawlers"

Wouldn't that technically be called a swarmer? And a brawler as someone who throws single power shots?

 

[revoltub]

My understanding was always that swarmer implies constant pressure. A brawler is someone who usually decides to go toe to toe whenever they fight, but might not always move forward. A slugger is someone with immense power who you usually wouldn't want to either swarm or brawl with.

 

[Pierce 34]

My understanding was always that swarmer implies constant pressure. A brawler is someone who usually decides to go toe to toe whenever they fight, but might not always move forward. A slugger is someone with immense power who you usually wouldn't want to either swarm or brawl with.

I think putting pressure plus throwing power shots would be a mix of the two

 

[mozfonky]

hmmm, don't know if there really is much of a difference really although of course the methods guys fight that way will differ. Some guys will throw punches from all angles with no thought of where they land or if they do any damage (marciano, 70s foreman) others will try to hit vulnerable spots and think about what they are doing (joe frazier, Julio Cesar Chavez) I suppose if there really is a difference in the terms "swarmer" and "brawler" it might come down to the punch volume, a "swarmer" would really indicate that tons of punches are coming from them, a brawler would be similar but not as much maybe. Anyways, like joe frazier said in his fine book on boxing, that there are really only three styles, boxer, puncher, swarmer and that there is plenty of overlap between them all. I mentioned George Forman, he was really a puncher in the 70's but being as he just threw stupid punches from all angles with no thought to what he was doing was like a swarmer.

You know what I'm always fascinated by with guys applying pressure? I'm fascinated by when guys don't even throw punches and they come in so aggressive they drain the other guy, make him nervous and make him throw stupid punches and burn his energy (check out Don Curry-Nino Larocca) or a guy like Salvador Sanchez who was the best ever at mixing defense with his aggressive style. No one did it better, no one anticipated what would be coming back better (and thus getting out of the way) and no one threw smart punches off of the defensive bobs and weaves, guy was truly special.

 

[mozfonky]

I think putting pressure plus throwing power shots would be a mix of the two

lots of guys we think of as pressure fighters and swarmers just weren't punchers so they had to overcome their disadvanatage by throwing more. Take a look at Jake Lamotta's kayo ratio, you'd be surprised but that's not atypical for some swarmers.

 

[Pierce 34]

hmmm, don't know if there really is much of a difference really although of course the methods guys fight that way will differ. Some guys will throw punches from all angles with no thought of where they land or if they do any damage (marciano, 70s foreman) others will try to hit vulnerable spots and think about what they are doing (joe frazier, Julio Cesar Chavez) I suppose if there really is a difference in the terms "swarmer" and "brawler" it might come down to the punch volume, a "swarmer" would really indicate that tons of punches are coming from them, a brawler would be similar but not as much maybe. Anyways, like joe frazier said in his fine book on boxing, that there are really only three styles, boxer, puncher, swarmer and that there is plenty of overlap between them all. I mentioned George Forman, he was really a puncher in the 70's but being as he just threw stupid punches from all angles with no thought to what he was doing was like a swarmer.

You know what I'm always fascinated by with guys applying pressure? I'm fascinated by when guys don't even throw punches and they come in so aggressive they drain the other guy, make him nervous and make him throw stupid punches and burn his energy (check out Don Curry-Nino Larocca) or a guy like Salvador Sanchez who was the best ever at mixing defense with his aggressive style. No one did it better, no one anticipated what would be coming back better (and thus getting out of the way) and no one threw smart punches off of the defensive bobs and weaves, guy was truly special.

lots of guys we think of as pressure fighters and swarmers just weren't punchers so they had to overcome their disadvanatage by throwing more. Take a look at Jake Lamotta's kayo ratio, you'd be surprised but that's not atypical for some swarmers.

Yeah if their goal is to score more punches like it's a basketball game trying to score more points. Then you're a swarmer

 

[Mujeriego]

I've people call pressure fighters who like to stand in the pocket and trade as "brawlers"

Wouldn't that technically be called a swarmer? And a brawler as someone who throws single power shots?

William Zepeda is a swarmer
Luis Alberto Lopez is a brawler

 

[Pierce 34]

William Zepeda is a swarmer
Luis Alberto Lopez is a brawler

who are those guys I barely know boxing

 

[Mujeriego]

who are those guys I barely know boxing

Two boxers.

 

[Pierce 34]

Two boxers.

I thought they work for the department of water and power

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

There's lots of information on the various boxing styles and how they stack up against one another here. Like Moz said there can be quite a bit of overlap. Some fighters are versatile and can be classified as one style or another. They may even be capable of changing their approach from one fight to the next, or during a fight, which only complicates the matter. The trick here is to determine their primary style while keeping the fighter's versatility in mind when breaking down match-ups. Lastly there are hybrid styles themselves, like the boxer-puncher, pressure-counter types, etc.

Traditionally the conventional wisdom comes from what's called "Rock, Paper, Scissors." More often than not boxers tend to beat brawlers/sluggers, brawlers/sluggers tend to beat swarmers, and swarmers tend to beat boxers. Boxer-punchers don't neatly fit into any single classification so results can vary considerably when they're pitted against the other styles. Floyd, for example, can be considered either a boxer or a counterpuncher which is a specialized subtype of boxer.

Historically Frazier was generally regarded as a swarmer, Ali a boxer (or counterpuncher), and Foreman a slugger. We saw this conventional wisdom play out between them in the 70s. According to this boxing styles theory Ali was supposed to beat Foreman and he did, Foreman was supposed to beat Frazier and he did, and Frazier was supposed to beat Ali and he did in their initial encounter. In subsequent fights against Frazier, Ali was able to overcome a stylistic disadvantage. However, according to the bookies at the time, Foreman was actually a big favorite over Ali. They were wrong and the boxing styles theory was correct in accurately predicting what was most likely to unfold.

Of course there's a lot more to breaking down fights than just comparing fighters' styles but it's typically the first step in the process. After that you'd look at physical & athletic attributes, age and their current form, a fighter's experience level, and so on.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Joe Frazier is a swarmer, he was aggressive and didn't give you much room to operate. However, it is clear that Frazier was technically sound and didn't thrive in chaos. No one would really call Frazier a brawler.

So you could use Joe Frazier as a fundamental example of what a swarmer is.

Swarmer, brawlers, and sluggers are usually in-fighters, which is why there is overlap.

 

[Intermission]

I've people call pressure fighters who like to stand in the pocket and trade as "brawlers"

Wouldn't that technically be called a swarmer? And a brawler as someone who throws single power shots?

Swarmers steamroll forward, brawling id more or less static plowing

 

[Intermission]

There's lots of information on the various boxing styles and how they stack up against one another here. Like Moz said there can be quite a bit of overlap. Some fighters are versatile and can be classified as one style or another. They may even be capable of changing their approach from one fight to the next, or during a fight, which only complicates the matter. The trick here is to determine their primary style while keeping the fighter's versatility in mind when breaking down match-ups. Lastly there are hybrid styles themselves, like the boxer-puncher, pressure-counter types, etc.

Traditionally the conventional wisdom comes from what's called "Rock, Paper, Scissors." More often than not boxers tend to beat brawlers/sluggers, brawlers/sluggers tend to beat swarmers, and swarmers tend to beat boxers. Boxer-punchers don't neatly fit into any single classification so results can vary considerably when they're pitted against the other styles. Floyd, for example, can be considered either a boxer or a counterpuncher which is a specialized subtype of boxer.

Historically Frazier was generally regarded as a swarmer, Ali a boxer (or counterpuncher), and Foreman a slugger. We saw this conventional wisdom play out between them in the 70s. According to this boxing styles theory Ali was supposed to beat Foreman and he did, Foreman was supposed to beat Frazier and he did, and Frazier was supposed to beat Ali and he did in their initial encounter. In subsequent fights against Frazier, Ali was able to overcome a stylistic disadvantage. However, according to the bookies at the time, Foreman was actually a big favorite over Ali. They were wrong and the boxing styles theory was correct in accurately predicting what was most likely to unfold.

Of course there's a lot more to breaking down fights than just comparing fighters' styles but it's typically the first step in the process. After that you'd look at physical & athletic attributes, age and their current form, a fighter's experience level, and so on.

I always thought the rock paper scissors theory was based on the ALi-Foreman-Frazier triangle

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I always thought the rock paper scissors theory was based on the ALi-Foreman-Frazier triangle

No, it's just mentioned as a classic example to illustrate the point. Knowledge of stylistic advantages in boxing long predates the 70s.

 

[Intermission]

No, it's just mentioned as a classic example to illustrate the point. Knowledge of stylistic advantages in boxing long predates the 70s.

Then why was foreman a favorite against Ali. Ali was not washed up

 

[Intermission]

Wilder has so little technique it's hard to classify him belonging to anything. But technically speaking... He's a boxer puncher. Tyson fury is a finesse boxer.

What's interesting is that Furys style in the rematch was brawling.
the skill gap is so big between these two though that this data is irrelevant.

Joshua-Fury would be highly relevant though. Joshua is a legit boxer puncher.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Then why was foreman a favorite against Ali. Ali was not washed up

Foreman had been on a killing spree and was believed to be too strong for Ali. Only a few fighters had managed to go the distance with him leading up to the fight. Like I said the bookies at the time defied what we already knew about style vs style clashes back then. They probably relied on triangle theory to predict that Foreman would beat Ali soundly. After all Frazier had already beaten Ali and Foreman had crushed Frazier. Triangle theory is flawed and can't be relied on whatsoever because styles make fights. This has been known for ages. Just because Fighter A beat B, and B beat C, doesn't automatically mean that Fighter A would most likely beat C if they fought.

 

[Intermission]

Foreman had been on a killing spree and was believed to be too strong for Ali.

They thought the exact same thing about Liston. Learned nothing,

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

They thought the exact same thing about Liston. Learned nothing,

Come to think of it leading up to Ali's fight against Foreman the latter had also smashed Norton. The two guys that held a win apiece over Ali were pulverized by Foreman inside a few rounds.