What's goin' down at Tocco's (video):

[Sinister]

Alright, finally getting in here.

First, Bandito. It looks like that natural counter-puncher mentality is his undoing sometimes, as he spends a lot of time waiting and waiting for the perfect opportunity to attack, and throwing single shots. It seems like the further he gets from the initial counter, the more he feels like he's leading, and he loses confidence.

Looking at the Haney session, he got a little mesmerized by that stiff jab of Haney's, and sort of stood around waiting for it. That's not a terrible thing for a counter puncher, but he wasn't doing anything to make the jab come when he wanted it to. Early in the first round he was feinting and changing levels, but Haney got him to stop pretty quickly, and held onto the initiative himself.

You told him to go for the 1-2 as a counter, and I think that really helped him, though it took him a while to feel comfortable trying it. The reason is that, with Haney always going first, he had more than enough time to plan his attack, get in, and then get out. Seems like Bandito has it stuck in his head that he needs to defend the first attack and THEN counter, when I think it might be really beneficial for him to throw a few "stops" in there as well--hitting Haney AS he steps in with the jab. I have great faith in the catch & jab for finding the distance, but Haney was getting so confident just lunging forward with that jab, it might have helped Bandito to simply change levels and stick his own jab in the guy's belly.

He's definitely at his best when he plays with level changes. At 2:02 he got low, and when Haney started to get low with him he popped up with a really nice left uppercut. There's another pretty little sequence at 10:12 when he gets Haney to overcommit and lower his head, and drills him with two uppercuts in a row. He's also a lot harder to hit when he stays low. The problem is that he keeps popping up mid-combo and working his feet out of position.

I guess the biggest thing that stood out to me with this session is one that you mentioned yourself: confidence. Joseph just didn't seem to feel very confident. He would stand there and think "how am I going to stop what he wants to do next?" when it would be better to MAKE something happen that he already feels confident countering. Maybe it's just my "do-er" mentality talking here, but it always helps me to have a go-to move in mind. So when I get flustered are catch myself planning too much and not doing enough, I can always go back to a simple stop jab until I can get back into my rhythm.

As for the session against Corey, there's obvious improvement there. It doesn't seem like Corey packs quite as much pop in his jab as Haney did in his, but then Corey also seems to be a lot better with his combinations, and just has more tricks to deal with.

It didn't start off so great. At 0:40 Bandito came in way too tall and walked right into a jab, but he warmed to his work pretty quickly. I liked the little hop-step hook that he fired off the roll at 0:58. Corey was asking for a short right over the top to follow that up, but you mentioned that yourself. Once he gets his combinations going I think Bandito will feel a lot more confident in his counters, but it's going to take some focus on staying low and moving his feet carefully before he feels comfortable.

Sharp contrast between his two hooks at 5:24 and 5:32. The first one was brilliant. Great weight transfer, and I'm sure that's exactly what you're going for with him, since you mentioned earlier in the thread that you wanted to get him punching while pulling his head back. There was no follow-up to that shot, as you noted from the corner, but the very next sequence kind of indicates why: Bandito throws one punch, pops up tall, and gets hit with a counter. And then he keeps throwing with his knees unbent and his feet square. It just seems like he's going to struggle with putting those combos together until he can get himself to not only GET low, but STAY low, even when throwing four or more punches together.

The confidence in the Corey session made Bandito especially coachable, which I liked to see. One highlight was when you called for "head position!" at about 9:42 and he listened, and then immediately capitalized with two punches. He obviously sees the openings when they're there, and when his foundations feel sound, he feels confident enough to really go after them, with beautiful results.

13:20 was fantastic. I loved the way that he stayed connected to Corey as he backed up. That's a level of forward-fighting that I haven't seen in any of Joseph's other videos. And then, in the last thirty seconds of the session, suddenly his right hand was landing all over the place. It's funny, because he lands that right almost every time he throws it, but he doesn't seem to feel confident in throwing it. It looked like he finally felt comfortable and fell into his rhythm at the end of the session, and his right was sending Corey's head back over and over. That's a really strong indication of just how much potential he has.

I'll come back later with some notes on Samurai Pete.

The bottom-line on Joseph comes down to one thing. If he can time you, he can beat you. And since he can time anyone, mostly it's depending on how long it takes him to get your timing. But this is also against people who play his game, people who make him go forward give him way more problems.

 

[Sinister]

Here's some HL's from our last exhibition event:

 

[Discipulus]

The bottom-line on Joseph comes down to one thing. If he can time you, he can beat you. And since he can time anyone, mostly it's depending on how long it takes him to get your timing. But this is also against people who play his game, people who make him go forward give him way more problems.

There must be some ways to enhance his process, though, right? When he was struggling with Haney's jab, it was largely because he was waiting on it, rather than forcing the issue. I didn't see a lot of feinting from him, nor enough jabs of his own to encourage the attack he was trying to time.

 

[Sinister]

Well, there are ways. They just take time to establish. I don't think he was struggling with Haney's jab solely because he was waiting on it. That's not giving Devin, one of the top Amateurs in the U.S. enough credit. Devin was changing the timing of his jab, as well as the depth. One thing that was going on in that session was a transition, prior to it I had been working on getting Joseph to catch jabs with his right hand instead of tapping them with his left. When he tapped Devin's with his left, he'd be at Devin's optimal range and not his own. In later sessions you'll see he doesn't do that so much. This gave him better depth-perception of good jabs. Devin also didn't easily abandon his jab, Joseph hadn't been dealing with high-level guys of that caliber much before the session, so he was thrown off by Devin not being thrown off when countered.

But that's too much investment in a single session. From that one, to the Corey session, to his fight...significant improvement was made. A session with Devin now wouldn't be the same.

 

[Discipulus]

Well, there are ways. They just take time to establish. I don't think he was struggling with Haney's jab solely because he was waiting on it. That's not giving Devin, one of the top Amateurs in the U.S. enough credit. Devin was changing the timing of his jab, as well as the depth. One thing that was going on in that session was a transition, prior to it I had been working on getting Joseph to catch jabs with his right hand instead of tapping them with his left. When he tapped Devin's with his left, he'd be at Devin's optimal range and not his own. In later sessions you'll see he doesn't do that so much. This gave him better depth-perception of good jabs. Devin also didn't easily abandon his jab, Joseph hadn't been dealing with high-level guys of that caliber much before the session, so he was thrown off by Devin not being thrown off when countered.

But that's too much investment in a single session. From that one, to the Corey session, to his fight...significant improvement was made. A session with Devin now wouldn't be the same.

Yes, I can see that now. That's fascinating. From whom do you think he got the habit of catching jabs with his lead? For such a left-handed fighter (and one who struggles to cover distance) that seems like a terribly self-limiting habit.

I want to watch his fight again and see if I can catch on to some of his specific improvements.

 

[Sinister]

I don't know, some other trainer.

 

[ssullivan80]

There must be some ways to enhance his process, though, right? When he was struggling with Haney's jab, it was largely because he was waiting on it, rather than forcing the issue. I didn't see a lot of feinting from him, nor enough jabs of his own to encourage the attack he was trying to time.

That kid Haney does some really deceptive and tricky stuff with his front foot to set up his jab (watch close at about 1:59-2:04 ish). Whether it's intentional or not i don't know, but it definitely would make it difficult to time. I'll watch it a few more times and see if I can better articulate exactly what Im seeing. But in essence, he uses that front foot in a way that basically is a depth perception feint. It didn't seem so much to me that Bandito was waiting vs getting stalled trying to find his range (he was getting caught on the stall).

However, his progression from the first clip to the most recent is very impressive. His level changes are far more subtle (I.E: they are purposeful vs habitual) and he's far more efficient with his jab. He's doing much less "waiting on his opponent" to find his timing and instead is "drawing them in" and timing them. One thing I observed is he seems to lose confidence in his right hand fairly often though. Either way, I definitely want to take some time to really rewatch the clips of him. I remember seeing some of the very early tape Sin took of him and he's definitely refined a lot, but without losing his identity. He's more Marquez less Barrera...... if that makes sense.

 

[Sinister]

Yes, Barrera's downfall was being able to be sucked into brawls throughout his career. Marquez also does that, but significantly less.

His right hand is very weird. I've been trying to refine it for a while now but he always throws it funny because of his posture, combined with being duck-footed. He's got good speed/accuracy/power with it, but those are just the characteristics of it's effectiveness if it hits. What is missing is it's not very streamlined releasing from the shoulder, and he doesn't rotate his torso the way I want to make it arrow-straight.

P.S. - Bonus footage. I mentioned in the above video that Tyson trained here for the Berbick fight. That was 1986, here's a bit of footage:

 

[Token7]

That kid Haney does some really deceptive and tricky stuff with his front foot to set up his jab (watch close at about 1:59-2:04 ish). Whether it's intentional or not i don't know, but it definitely would make it difficult to time. I'll watch it a few more times and see if I can better articulate exactly what Im seeing. But in essence, he uses that front foot in a way that basically is a depth perception feint. It didn't seem so much to me that Bandito was waiting vs getting stalled trying to find his range (he was getting caught on the stall).

However, his progression from the first clip to the most recent is very impressive. His level changes are far more subtle (I.E: they are purposeful vs habitual) and he's far more efficient with his jab. He's doing much less "waiting on his opponent" to find his timing and instead is "drawing them in" and timing them. One thing I observed is he seems to lose confidence in his right hand fairly often though. Either way, I definitely want to take some time to really rewatch the clips of him. I remember seeing some of the very early tape Sin took of him and he's definitely refined a lot, but without losing his identity. He's more Marquez less Barrera...... if that makes sense.

Can someone explain to me what you're talking about when you say "depth" with a jab? The only thing I can think of is jabbing the gloves compared to jabbing the face...but in reality I've seen that word used a few times in the thread with the jab and ts confusing.

Btw great sparring videos Sinister, your guys are very fortunate to get really good work in like that. Props to you and other trainers in the area for setting up good sparring like that.

 

[Sinister]

Well, depth means penetration. Very very good fighters don't always just aim to strike where they land. They know how to punch beyond the target a bit. Haney is good at probing the way Floyd does. He'll tap your gloves, then perhaps lightly tap your face. But then he'll extend further as if trying to jab through your head. And he switches these up to keep you guessing.

 

[WillW]

Here's some HL's from our last exhibition event:

Good Stuff.

Do you work with Flash at all? I know u said he had another coach, but he has shown some good work. Look forward to seeing him progress as well.

 

[Sinister]

Well, we all help each other out. But he's John's fighter. I give pointers here and there.

 

[WillW]

Keep the sparring coming.

You should put Blue in there with Daijon, I always wondered what would happen. That patient puncher vs. that SP with good speed and footwork.

 

[Sinister]

Daijon has become too good to put in with Bleu with a 20lb weight advantage.

 

[ssullivan80]

Daijon has become too good to put in with Bleu with a 20lb weight advantage.

He's definitely gifted. You think you'll be able to get him to Rio 2016? I know you've mentioned that goal for him.

Yes, Barrera's downfall was being able to be sucked into brawls throughout his career. Marquez also does that, but significantly less.

His right hand is very weird. I've been trying to refine it for a while now but he always throws it funny because of his posture, combined with being duck-footed. He's got good speed/accuracy/power with it, but those are just the characteristics of it's effectiveness if it hits. What is missing is it's not very streamlined releasing from the shoulder, and he doesn't rotate his torso the way I want to make it arrow-straight.

When you reference "releasing from the shoulder", your basically saying he's pushing the cross (lifting elbow, throwing it short) ?

It's interesting to watch how guys you train progress. I know I've mentioned it before that your fighters have an "identity", as in if I watched several guys from different coaches I could probably identify the one you trained (I.E: Emmanuel Steward, particularly in the fights he trained Chad Dawson for... and who hasn't trained Dawson. Dawson's posture, movement, etc all were signature Emmanuel Steward). But from watching enough of the clips of your guys progressing (particularly Bandito and Blue) you can see your "signature" in the way they have been trained. Specifically in their posture (back foot under rear shoulder, subtle shifting between hips, jab underneath-head pulls back, keeping their heads from falling outside/over their knees), you can tell you've made these guys do the "tile drill" relentlessly. It's obvious that the guys you train fight for position before they "fight". I can see how your guys have had some shitty decisions in ammy competitions go against them. Vs say a style more like a Freddie R trained fighter who just throws alot of punches and offensive aggression is prioritized over offensive position (which the ammy rules/scoring encourage, unfortunately).

Your guys don't throw the volume (throwaway punches) as they've clearly been trained to be in position first. They land cleaner more effective shots and don't defensively compromise themselves nearly as much, but because they prioritize posture/positioning the don't get the volume that ammy rules/scoring encourages. It's far more refined of a skill to teach a guy to keep composed and throw punches in the transition to establishing position vs. just punching for points. In summation, IMO: Your teaching "pro boxing" to guys fighting in the ammy's vs training ammy boxing so guys can learn to fight like pros. By no means is that a dig, it's really quite the opposite as your system of training prioritizes the traits that promote success and longevity (your not training guys to be "punching bags" that can punch) if boxing becomes a "career". I'm looking forward to watching more of these guys you've mentored in their early pro fights, as I think they will transition exceptionally well. But conversely, I think they'll struggle a bit in the early part of their ammy's, as they'll likely lose "decisions" by winning "fights". So long as they understand that though it shouldn't get them "defeated", but that's far easier said than done IMO.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, he kinda pushes his cross. And his posture not being where I want limits his rotational ability. So it's a slow-fix problem.

I think that's the most articulately anyone has stated what I do, because that's pretty much exactly right. And Dadi and I both hope efforts like ours kind of sway boxing back to that. No distinction between Amateur and Pro boxing that makes one only viable at one or the other.

Speaking of Dadi and I, Bjorn stopped by for a few days:



The clock was accidentally set on 2 minutes for that round. Here's the rest. Sorry for the weird view but my phone had to stay plugged in to the wall:

 

[ssullivan80]

Daijon looks sharp! certainly doesn't lack any confidence. His left cross is pretty, but he seems to be slapping a lot with that right hook (more than I recall from prior sparring clips). It's plenty quick, but it looks non-committal, like he's hurrying it so he can keep narrow at the shoulders.

Now, IMO that slap hook he's throwing is being utilized well defensively as a counter when he's backing up, being pressured. But when he's coming forward and initiating his offense, particularly when he's hooking off his cross, he's rushing his hook (keeping elbow pinned to his side). He get's such good rotation off his cross that I don't see why he's not sitting down, pulling back and sinking into that hook (and I know you've taught him how to throw the "hard lead hook").

Is he getting overly reliant on just that straight left? Don't get me wrong, his straight left is about as good of a straight left as i've seen. But IMO working more variation with his lead hand (hook off his jab) and committing more to throwing that "hard" hook would only make his straight left that much more effective. Then again, Lara is awful effective and i'd make the same observation about him.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, I've been working on his right hand for a while now. He did fall in love with his left, but he actually throws more combinations now than he ever did before. But his right needs to catch up to the left technique-wise, definitely. The thing about that slapping hook though is remember, he's externally rotated. It's a hard punch without him really trying. But it developed as a defensive reflex, so that's it's best capacity. Much like Bjorn's overhand there, and his beloved wide right to the body. Not his best THROWN punch, but by necessity became very adept with it despite needing some polish.

Edit: Jaja, I hadn't watched the above videos with Bjorn so much but fuck's sake that kid is strong. Every time he ***** that right hand you get the distinct impression something very bad is going to happen.

 

[barnowl]

Sinister, both guys are doing a very nice job of using the lead shoulder to cover the chin. I am finding that a hard skill to get across to folks these days. Just picked up a collegiate boxing club that was in desperate need of a coach. While I got some folks that have done a little before, there are still about 15 or so brand new boxers.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, it's usually something that has to be ingrained when someone first learns to box. Daijon began with John, who encourages it. But after only 2 months got me, and EVERYTHING I do has that position. Bjorn learned from no one but Dadi, so he was built that way, too. I've gotten others to do it successfully, but it isn't easy in a World full of people who tilt the lead shoulder down and the rear shoulder up, which is very frustrating.