What would UFC be worth on the NYSE?

You totally won the internet on this thread.... Congrats!

Relax. Just thought it was funny I said no one was qualified but they would try, and you quoted me and then proceeded to try despite not being qualifed. Like I said in post one though, that's why I love ya. :icon_chee


Also did Forbes value this at 1 billion, or did the fertittas tell them they had offers of 1 billion and Forbes just used that?
 
Relax. Just thought it was funny I said no one was qualified but they would try, and you quoted me and then proceeded to try despite not being qualifed. Like I said in post one though, that's why I love ya. :icon_chee


Also did Forbes value this at 1 billion, or did the fertittas tell them they had offers of 1 billion and Forbes just used that?

Fair enough... Qualified is different than not having the info imo. I think Forbes did exactly what we were talking about earlier, albeit with more info and a couple more well informed guesses. Doubt Zuffa gave them any info about proposed deals
 
... Doubt Zuffa gave them any info about proposed deals

They did and quoted that they received that offer, Forbes said they do think it is inflated when comparing to the WWE at the time that had a similar market cap and double the revenue however the Fertittas stated it was from private equity which would have allowed for the inflated price.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0505/080.html
 
They did and quoted that they received that offer, Forbes said they do think it is inflated when comparing to the WWE at the time that had a similar market cap and double the revenue however the Fertittas stated it was from private equity which would have allowed for the inflated price.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0505/080.html

They claimed they had offers of $1B+

This was a 2008 article though. Given the trajectory of the UFC at the time, and its stagnation over the last 2 years, they might have had rosier long-term growth projections whereas right now they might be judging based on more of a PVGO type assumption.

We can get a decent proxy on PPV/Gate revenue, but not on sponsorship revenue, nor of what their cost basis is. Though it might be comparable to something like a WWE paperview event. Hard to tell with private enterprises.
 
We can get a decent proxy on PPV/Gate revenue, but not on sponsorship revenue, nor of what their cost basis is. Though it might be comparable to something like a WWE paperview event. Hard to tell with private enterprises.

I posted 2011 gate and PPV revenues which would form easily the majority of UFC's revenue with sponsorship being the other main source. Also posted salaries which is the only thing they have disclosed though obviously staging each event excluding salaries would be the biggest cost.
 
Interesting - should be some estimates based on debt issues and private placements available on a Bloomberg terminal. I would say it is around 500mm as a guess. No fixed assets like a stadium, and very little merch compared to the other organizations listed.

This is about what I was thinking.
If it went public all the sudden, the initial value would be around $1.7b, then it'd collapse down to $500 after eight months or so
 
Also, I read some that are thinking that promotions couldn't have stock.
But IFL
 
I posted 2011 gate and PPV revenues which would form easily the majority of UFC's revenue with sponsorship being the other main source. Also posted salaries which is the only thing they have disclosed though obviously staging each event excluding salaries would be the biggest cost.

Just to guess, I'd probably take that rev, add another 20% for advertising rev, then assume margins of maybe 15%. Take that profit and give it a multiple of 15 maybe. That would be my offhand calculation. I don't think it has the upside that other people do though.
 
It would be worth ugatz. Even major sport franchises like man utd don't do much on the market.
 
I hope it's never listed because if it is any chance of getting good fights with deserving contenders will be out the window. We will be treated to freakshow fights like Diaz vs GSP and Sonnen vs Jones almost every event. We know how well this kind of event planning went for Pride.
 
good point.



yeah, if dana gets a free ticket to talk up the value, you gotta expect he will.

hes hardly gonna go low, is he?



The Rock - 10/11 John Cena - 4/5

Triple H - 7/2 The Undertaker - 1/6

CM Punk - 1/2 Chris Jericho - 6/4

Daniel Bryan - 9/4 Sheamus - 1/3

Cody Rhodes - 11/10 The Big Show - 4/6

Randy Orton - 1/4 Kane - 11/4

for a while now...

Read the restrictions I mean.
 
The hard part with DCF is we don't know their cash flow. They don't pay a public dividend so we can't estimate based on that. Their PPV and gate revenue stream can be reasonably estimated, but we don't know what their sponsorship deals are actually worth. People could come up with a close estimate, but without peeling back some of the layers and getting even a glimpse at the financials it's next to impossible.

You're right, but all this stuff is given to the IBs doing the valuation and the decision to go public is being made. It is also all released in the prospectus.
You can also use relative valuation, but then you still need their financial ratios.
My take on the current personality types of leadership at the company is that it will be a cold day in hell before they decide to go public.

Those of you interested in reading up on this should check out:

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/
 
Some work done prior by another poster in another thread that I liked and bookmarked. Might be helpful.

(Long Read)

We often see people on this site decrying Zuffa and predicting the end of the UFC based on scattered public information, while others seem overly optimistic.

I am going to try and pull a lot of that information together here in one comprehensive forward looking analysis. This is a big part of what I do in my job, so hopefully I can do a credible enough job of it to satisfy the sherdog masses and not get trolled. :icon_chee

PPV - a lot is said about the UFC falling PPV numbers. It is suggested by some that doom is imminent and the numbers point that out clearly, while other call it a mere blip due to injury and other external factors. And others still point to the # of events, over saturation, as the problem. The truth seems to lie somewhere in between.

By Nov 1, 2011 the UFC has staged 13 PPV events drawing in a total 5,125,000 PPV buys. That is an average of 394,000 per event.

By Nov 1, 2010 the UFC had staged 14 events so clearly # of PPV's is not the factor. In the first 13 events of 2010 the drew a total of 6,920,000 PPV buys. that is an average of 532,000 per event.

That is a 25% drop in year over PPV average buy numbers or 138,000 per event. A serious drop. But what happens when you look inside and 'Normalize' them?

The 'Normalization' process for any company can be questioned and counter opinions are valid so I will lay out my normalization rationale.

I am removing all GSP and Brock events from both 2010 and 2011 since they greatly effect numbers when they fight and they fought far less in 2011 then 2010. that leaves us an Apples to Apples comparison of all events that do not involve those two. I am also removing the Rampage/Evans event which did over 1M buys as an outlier that does not represent the Norm (thus the process of normalization which is to remove all non-normal factors) and I suspect some of you will take issue with that, which is fair. At minimum an asterisk should be placed beside that removal.

Removing those events our 2010 Ave ppv buys 394k per event and out 2011 Ave drops to 360k buys for a difference of 34k per event.

Still a noteworthy trend but no where near as alarming as the Gross numbers suggest.

To me it suggests that the core MMA market of PPV buyers has matured and drawn back about 10% which suggests growth going forward in those markets will be relatively flat and slow going forward. It does not suggest doom and gloom nor the imminent demise of the UFC.

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The state of Zuffa debt and what we should expect going forward.

I have looked at every Zuffa S&P Debt rating report as the best information we have on Zuffa as a private company. You can see many of them linked here in the middle of this article on MMAPayout.com.

First off, a private company issuing debt does not have to submit to a debt rating. it is voluntary but the reason a large bond issuer like Zuffa would do it is to allow for wider distribution or sale of their debt. The law of supply and demand says the more potential buyers of your debt, the cheaper you will be able to sell it for.

So once Zuffa submits to debt rating, it means they have to give the auditors full access to the finances, pro forma's and all assumptions going forward for intensive analysis. A rating group like S&P or Moody's then has to audit or verify past audits all existing financials and challenge and verify and rate all assumptions going forward based on soundness of plan and ability of management to execute. There is a lot of 'art' in the 'going forward' assumptions. Obviously S&P and Moody's cannot know the Zuffa business better then Zuffa.

What I notice is that every year Zuffa's debt has basically been upgraded by S&P as it floats between a BB- and BB (Stable) ranking. Anything below BBB is considered a "junk" Bond which is what pretty much any unsecured corporate bond will be considered, even from the most stable companies.

what you notice in the filings is that Zuffa is always very debt heavy using pretty much all of their credit line. 49M of 50M was in use at the time of their last report. OVerall Zuffa has $425M in long term debt that must be repaid or re-organized by 2015.

Debt is used as the cheapest way to grow in growth companies. If a company predicts its ROE (return on equity) will exceed the debt costs (interest payments) then they should take as much debt as possible to grow, expecting at the time the debt comes due their equity growth would have outpaced debt costs and they can sell some of that equity to pay off the debt. That or they refinance the debt again based on ROE expectations. If your ROE growth is not expected to be greater then debt carrying costs then the company should grow via issuing equity, or selling stock and diluting existing shareholders.

So Zuffa's use of maximum debt seems sound here and based on S&P showing little concern over it, I think that assumption is fair. Zuffa will and should continue to maximize debt going forward.

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Fertitta's and Zuffa... short, mid and long term....buy, sell or hold Zuffa Stock??

the Fertitta's are business men first and foremost. I can tell you that very few business men get married to any financial holding. Your decision to buy, sell or hold any stock is based on ROE expectations as compared to the ROE you could get with that same money invested elsewhere. It is an exercise in growth expectations.

What we have to consider is that the Fertitta's have a very strong competing potential growth market in their Station Casino and other Vegas holdings.

If indeed the UFC has flatlined in its growth in its traditional markets (N.American PPV's) the ROE expectation on Zuffa stock will reduce massively. It then becomes either a stable long term 'safe' investment that protects principle and maybe pays dividends and other cash distributions to unit holders (nothing wrong with that) or it could decline and draw back first before finding its stable core, thus eroding a lot of value.

Many investors will choose to sell at this point due to uncertainty as to how the company will stabilize. They will lock in their profits and move on to the next opportunity.

What we can see in the S&P reports is that foreign markets adoption of the UFC has been slower then expected and more costly then expected. Zuffa has pulled back from pouring money into growing those markets with the expectation that revenue's will scale and follow and now they are taking a more measured and slow approach. That along with even marginally shrinking markets domestically could be greatly concerning to a 'growth' minded investor.

the wildcard in this is Brazil. If indeed the UFC believes Brazil has the potential to be the next 'Canada' in terms of per capita market support that could potentially translate into more growth then the UFC has known to date in all markets combined. Brazil offers to the UFC what can only be called Mexico on steroids, when you look at what Mexico has done for boxing stability. If the UFC can translate the huge reported Brazil introductory viewers into stable viewers of free tv and buyers of PPV then Zuffa growth gong forward could greatly outstrip anything they have experienced prior, in their history.

it is my view that 'Brazil' is truly the question that needs to be answered before anyone can pronounce anything about Zuffa's and the UFC's future with regards to growth or decline and we simply do not yet have that information to predict accurately. At this stage I would not be shocked to see a PPV headed by Anderson/Chael to sell 2M PPV's in Brazil alone, which is a crazy amount considering the best ever PPV's tend to only sell that much. But Brazilians are passionate sports fans once they get behind a sport and if you add 'nationalism' to the picture.

What is competing for the Fertitta's interest and investment dollars is the Station Casino and related properties. About 14 casino's in total and a number of other related gaming properties they own.

The Fertitta family has a long term interest in the Vegas strip and being a big player in that industry can be massively lucrative. Station Casino and the Fertitta interests were at great risk after the Fertitta's made moves to buy out the other partners and take the company private between 2006-2008 with the company eventually having to file for bankruptcy.

Fortunately for the Fertitta's was that at the time of their Casino struggles, their Zuffa holdings value was soaring due to TUF, turning the tables on the long suffering UFC from a slow growth debt accumulator to a fast growing, ROE machine.

I am guessing that had TUF not given the Fertitta's a stable base that they would have had to cut their ties with one or both organizations (ZUFFA and Station Casino) to fortify their own personal positions.

If you look at the S&P filings re debt you can see that Zuffa has maximized cash distributions to the shareholders most years while at the same time you can see the Fertitta's have invested over $200M of their own money to increase their position in Station Casino and other gaming properties by taking advantage of the fact that in tough markets, cash is king, and those with cash can dictate any re-orgs.

cont...
 
cont...

It seems pretty clear to anyone looking in that the Fertitta's see Vegas and the gaming industry as key to their future. They are taking from Zuffa and investing in that. That suggests at a bare minimum that they see the short term ROE tied to gaming as greater then what they would get if they re-invested that same money back into Zuffa, which they could. You could also argue for 'diversification' which even if Zuffa was seen as the more attractive growth prospect, you could justify diversifying to reduce risk.

i would definately not be shocked if it was announced suddenly that the Fertitta's had sold their stake in Zuffa and cashed out and were piling that money into Vegas and gaming. Vegas is struggling now which makes it ripe for buyers with cash if you believe it will return to glory.



Most investors do look to exit, at some point. and the UFC, sans Brazil, seems to be a property that otherwise had matured and thus traditionally would be good to exit. No,I would not say the information suggests the UFC is in decline or in danger as many naysayers like to say. But it does appear its growth stage is behind it. But again I would point to Brazil as the wild card in all of this. Projections on growth tied to Brazil could mean an exit would be delayed by several years to allow that growth to be realized. that is the question we cannot assume or answer for Zuffa. How secure are they in the Brazil growth as they had higher hopes tied to the UK and other markets that never panned out and so they might be more cautious about expectations this time. However my view is that Brazil is not at all like the UK or other markets where the UFC has been trying to push into those markets. Brazil seems to be pulling the product as fast as the UFC can line up channels to get it to them. And thus the wildcard.

tl:dr

- PPV rates seem to have shrunk and stabilized as they have found their core audience. It is not as troubling as many suggest based on first glance.

- Zuffa seems stable and conducting a solid business based on utilizing debt for growth. S&P debt rating seems to confirm the positive outlook on the company

- the Fertitta's seem to be investing their growth capital outside Zuffa and pulling Zuffa money to invest in their gaming interests. That would at a minimum, suggest, they believe the short term ROE is greater in their interests outside Zuffa then inside it. Although diversification could be the answer as to why they are investing that money outside Zuffa instead of reinvesting it in Zuffa's future growth.

- Brazil - is the wildcard in all this. Brazil represents the potential growth of Zuffa that could outstrip all prior growth. Zuffa's belief in Brazil and its potential will likely be the key factor on all moves going forward.

edit 2:

ohh damn. I meant include Fox alongside 'Brazil' as the other wildcard. Basically it mirrors the potential upside in that exists in Brazil but to a lesser extent.

The S&P mentions the Fox deal as a 'stabilizing' influence on the company. the question is whether or not the UFC can convert their revenue mix from the more risky PPV model to the less risky Free TV model. To date that mix is 75% PPV and 25% outside PPV and any skewing of that revenue away from 75% PPV is seen as a positive. PPV is seen as inherently risky both short and long term and over reliance on it as a revenue stream is not seen as good.

If the the UFC continues to grow but more of that growth comes outside PPV then that will be an enormous positive for the org overall. Both Fox and the Brazilian free tv deal with Globo have the potential to greatly impact the revenue skew in a positive way.

...
 
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