What made Foreman hit like a truck?

[Negative Zero]

Lever 'A' transmitted more force than Lever 'B' despite being the same length and pulled the same distance over the same amount of time.

That is a mystery.

Well that's what's implied by a lot of people. That power can be this innate thing that just dwells within some people more than others. It seems obviously false but when you look at examples of the most powerful boxers of all time it makes you ask what's so special about them.

 

[Sinister]

Tyson's hands are definitely bigger than both Leonard's and DLH's, but I think Tyson's leverage really came more from his feet, and being built like a tree stump. Guy had incredible springing power, and his feet are ridiculously big for how short he is. He's designed to be rooted to the ground.

That said, physical strength in and of itself doesn't have anything to do with punching power. Plenty of fighters are strong, and don't hit well.

Anyway, Foreman? In a word, leverage. He had it.

 

[Sinister]

Human levers are never identical.

 

[OldMofo]

Most of punching power is just luck, genetics, or whatever else you want to call it. I have seen guys who have never trained a day in their lives spar and hit like a beast. Basically, Foreman can hit hard because he is Foreman.

Foreman might act like a nice guy these days, but that is one scary dude. Very few people have the ability to separate dudes from their consciousness like he can.

 

[SummerStriker]

Well that's what's implied by a lot of people. That power can be this innate thing that just dwells within some people more than others. It seems obviously false but when you look at examples of the most powerful boxers of all time it makes you ask what's so special about them.

Eh, who knows. Like Sinister said ^^ people aren't really identical.

One of my training partners has knuckles like needles. We call him Wolverine. I can't take much of a hit anywhere from him bare knuckle without cringing and we do impact conditioning all the time. Why is he so special? No clue.

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

Do you even know how to physics bro?

You think the weight of a human hand is relevant to this discussion? How much do you think hands differ in weight from human to human?

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Well that's what's implied by a lot of people. That power can be this innate thing that just dwells within some people more than others. It seems obviously false but when you look at examples of the most powerful boxers of all time it makes you ask what's so special about them.

Exhibit A: Prince Hasseem Named
Terrible punching techniques, but have enough TNT in his hands to knock a guy out while moving BACKWARD
You really cannot train for that kind of knockout power.

 

[PivotPunch]

You think the weight of a human hand is relevant to this discussion? How much do you think hands differ in weight from human to human?

not that much but it matters more because it's at the end of your lever.

Put a 2lbs weight or something in your hand and while it's more exhausting you will hit harder, put a 2lbs backpack on and you won't even notice the difference in power even though it should theoretically be there

 

[KounterPunch]

My eyes arent the ones lying if you're insinuating Foreman didnt put his hips into his punches.

The devil is in the details , my friend.
I didn't say he didn't put his hips into his punches .
I said he didn't do it as much as a Julian Jackson or a Mike Tyson.
If u can't see the difference ........

At any rate, just Google "George foreman arm puncher"
A ton of enthusiasts , trainers , reporters etc etc tend to agree with that view so there might be something to it , no ?

If not , oh well.

 

[Sinister]

You think the weight of a human hand is relevant to this discussion? How much do you think hands differ in weight from human to human?

Actually, hands are very different human to human. Paul Malignaggi and Floyd Mayweather Jr. are not light hitters in general. But they both have genetically small and brittle hands compared to others. Thus, each have suffered multiple hand breaks, which has resulted in each also not throwing punches as hard as they can. In training people, you see hands every day, they're very different. I got two 12 year-old boys recently. One has normal sized hands, normal wrists, nothing exceptional. The other has hands the size of his entire face, big knuckles, thick wrists. The latter will hit harder than the former.

Most of punching power is just luck, genetics, or whatever else you want to call it. I have seen guys who have never trained a day in their lives spar and hit like a beast. Basically, Foreman can hit hard because he is Foreman.

Foreman might act like a nice guy these days, but that is one scary dude. Very few people have the ability to separate dudes from their consciousness like he can.

Punching power is definitely not "luck."

 

[KounterPunch]

Oh and no point posting up gifs of him doing that.
Nobody does the same thing all the time and , in the same way , there's as much instances of GF putting his hips in as there are of him lunging , swinging , pawing , tipping sideways , pushing.

The most probable reason is that Sandy Saddler was just so eager to get his discovery into the ring that he skipped the basics ......... Or he was just so smart that he realized there was no point teaching him to punch any harder when it was already overwhelming as it is.

 

[Steve08]

Punching power is definitely not "luck."

But I thought everyone and their mother said punchers are born, not made!

:icon_lol:

I think that's really just an excuse for not making your technique as good as possible, though. Or not training because you are convinced that a guy's athletic ability is some sort of cheat code. There's a lot of dogma in martial arts, but I'm not sure how much of it is backed by actual science.

As if boxers don't train to increase their power. I mean, why the fuck train at all then, if you'll never be able to knock someone out because of <insert vague non-physiological explanation here>. As if most people who have issues hurting an opponent couldn't improve their power by: attempting to create collisions, lowering their stance, putting the body weight into motion, etc.

Anyway, Foreman? In a word, leverage. He had it.

So is that a natural aspect of his physiology, like Tyson's big feet as you mentioned, or does it relate more to his stance? I ask that because you once told me about how Jack Blackburn focused on making Louis's stance much lower to the ground, increasing his power, and I certainly can't say I have ever seen Big George stand with knees straight as a ruler.

Gene Tunney also once wrote that he believed the source of Jack Dempsey's power to be his unusually broad shoulders though, that's interesting to me. His claim was that as Dempsey had a longer collar bone with which to leverage, he could generate power in a shorter period of time than others. Not sure how true that is though. Of course, Dempsey himself claimed that his power was mostly the result of hitting technique.

 

[Sinister]

The devil is in the details , my friend.
I didn't say he didn't put his hips into his punches .
I said he didn't do it as much as a Julian Jackson or a Mike Tyson.
If u can't see the difference ........

At any rate, just Google "George foreman arm puncher"
A ton of enthusiasts , trainers , reporters etc etc tend to agree with that view so there might be something to it , no ?

If not , oh well.

I see the difference in style mechanics between those three men. I dont need to google anything, Ive studied Foreman for quite a while. Especially the things imparted to him by Moore and the Saddlers (note: young Foreman's style was almost an exact hybrid of Sandy Saddler's basic stance, with Moore's motions for circular punches). He did not put his hips into his punches in the same manner as Tyson, why would he? D'Amato had a completely different system. But to say he didnt shoot from the hips is simply incorrect. His base and ability to rotate at hip level very subtly is not only at the root of his punching force generation, but also why he only saw the canvas all of two or three times in his whole career.

 

[Sinister]

I guess in the Tibetan philosophy aspect of the word, genetics is also luck. But, it's not. However, athleticism as a product of genetics is backed by TONS of science. A long time ago I made this thread:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736256

People don't like hearing about genetics, usually because they feel it undermines their work ethic. But genetics are just a fact of human existence, and give you your athletic aptitude. Just like they set the parameters for your height, eye color, taste in mates, etc.

But you make an extreme statement, "never be able to knock anyone out." I don't think I've ever seen a fighter at the Pro level with NO stoppage wins. Then you make a vague statement: "improve their power." If you train, things will improve. But if you're built like a Malignaggi, nothing will make you a George Foreman.

And I don't think I said Blackburn INCREASED Louis's power. He wasn't going to train Louis until Joe accidentally knocked out a sparring partner in front of him while dancing around the ring. Blackburn then decided to lower his center of gravity, and put his ability to hit at the forefront of his style. But George and Joe are two different animals. George has that tall guy leverage, combined with very strong fast twitch muscles (he could hurt you with a punch that looked light and traveled very short distances), also likely had very good tendon strength.

Anything that adds to leverage will add to the ability to hurt people. IMO the mistake is attributing punching power to one single thing, usually it's a collection of good things each fighter with it possesses. For instance, Joe Frazier's hook was actually accentuated by him hurting his left arm very badly, that left it permanently bent. From there his left arm was always at a good hook degree whether he wanted it to be or not.

 

[Phlog]

So you mean to tell me, that Tyson didn't have a gift or natural power? having natural ability means a lot. and it's something not everybody has. You say having natural ability means "zero". wich is stupid. You also say all fighters are gifted. You don't know shit about boxing.

No, you misunderstood me. I said: sayin someone's a natural or gifted means zero.

I want to know why, I prefer not just to hand wave. Sayin it just is learns you nothin boy. Actually humans are remarkably similar, physically. Generally a difference in outcome is a result of a novel environmental factor upon generally receptive genetics. Epi genetics. As such the environmental factor is worthy of enquiry.

Sinister, thanks. I had all the info but stupidly wasn't seeing the wood for the chopping trees. Been working on power generation, trying to get other punches like my overhand right(I'm tall, it angles down, hits like a train). I'd given up on working out why it was that much harder to begin with, like SkribbLe I figured it was innate and so I was focussing on replicating the internal feeling of the right in others, a whipping sensation.

You just made me consider that in my daily work I break rocks with a sledgehammer. Yeah.. overhand right. Doh.. so. Off to break some rocks in a lateral motion. Get some.

 

[Steve08]

I guess in the Tibetan philosophy aspect of the word, genetics is also luck. But, it's not. However, athleticism as a product of genetics is backed by TONS of science. A long time ago I made this thread:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736256

People don't like hearing about genetics, usually because they feel it undermines their work ethic. But genetics are just a fact of human existence, and give you your athletic aptitude. Just like they set the parameters for your height, eye color, taste in mates, etc.

Lots of cool info there, thanks.

But you make an extreme statement, "never be able to knock anyone out." I don't think I've ever seen a fighter at the Pro level with NO stoppage wins. Then you make a vague statement: "improve their power." If you train, things will improve. But if you're built like a Malignaggi, nothing will make you a George Foreman.

Sure, George Foreman's physiology is better for hitting hard. No disputing that. But Paulie has a reputation for being pillow-fisted (7 KOs in 34 wins), and I would ask if that is purely the result of brittle hands, or if it's that plus a combination of him not being able to skillfully maneuver opponents into solid blows (since the boxer you mentioned seems to be in the unenviable position of not having enough athleticism to throw hard out of his stance, and not having enough technical skill to out point the best in the world). And if it is accountable to (comparatively) low skill, then surely he could stop more guys if he attempted to use their momentum against them. And that's pretty much what I mean. Someone who is genetically unfit for high level athletics might not be able to train for a long time and be able to knock out a professional boxer, but compared to random people, with some knowledge of body weight and timing, they can be startlingly effective, to the point of possibly being able to do something that they once thought was impossible (i.e. knock someone out, if it gets to that point).

I mean, Lyoto Machida's punch off the bat is probably not insubstantial, but it's not the kind of blow that would floor someone unless they were in a compromised position. Yet, when he is able to intercept an opponent, he can knock them out badly. I would submit that this is accountable mainly to skill.

To be sure, some people have a higher physical ceiling than others. But I do believe that at least 80% of people can reach that physical ceiling with hard work, however high it may or may not be. That might not give them an edge over a professional boxer, but it would probably allow them to do things that others convince themselves is something that that person was "born to do" when really they have simply dedicated themselves to improving.

And I don't think I said Blackburn INCREASED Louis's power. He wasn't going to train Louis until Joe accidentally knocked out a sparring partner in front of him while dancing around the ring. Blackburn then decided to lower his center of gravity, and put his ability to hit at the forefront of his style.

Isn't the purpose of lowering the center of gravity to ensure that punches come "from the ground up", though?

But George and Joe are two different animals. George has that tall guy leverage, combined with very strong fast twitch muscles (he could hurt you with a punch that looked light and traveled very short distances), also likely had very good tendon strength.

Could you define what aspects of his physiology contributes to leverage in this case more specifically-- is it, say, the length of his limbs?

Anything that adds to leverage will add to the ability to hurt people. IMO the mistake is attributing punching power to one single thing, usually it's a collection of good things each fighter with it possesses. For instance, Joe Frazier's hook was actually accentuated by him hurting his left arm very badly, that left it permanently bent. From there his left arm was always at a good hook degree whether he wanted it to be or not.

Yeah, it's definitely a combination of factors. That's interesting about Frazier too.

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

No, you misunderstood me. I said: sayin someone's a natural or gifted means zero.

I want to know why, I prefer not just to hand wave. Sayin it just is learns you nothin boy. Actually humans are remarkably similar, physically. Generally a difference in outcome is a result of a novel environmental factor upon generally receptive genetics. Epi genetics. As such the environmental factor is worthy of enquiry.

Sinister, thanks. I had all the info but stupidly wasn't seeing the wood for the chopping trees. Been working on power generation, trying to get other punches like my overhand right(I'm tall, it angles down, hits like a train). I'd given up on working out why it was that much harder to begin with, like SkribbLe I figured it was innate and so I was focussing on replicating the internal feeling of the right in others, a whipping sensation.

You just made me consider that in my daily work I break rocks with a sledgehammer. Yeah.. overhand right. Doh.. so. Off to break some rocks in a lateral motion. Get some.

While i agree with you about the hand weave part (as seeing how many people just hand wave some of the all time great's technical ability as something "gifted" and therefore cannot to replicate or learn), sometimes "natural" and "gifted" it is the only explanation available. Humans might be remarkably similar in general sense, sometimes there are only certain people who have that X factor that pushed them above the rest, like Mark Hunt's chin or RJJ's blinding mix of raw speed and power. IMO it is those things where you cannot break it down in technical sense that count as "natural" or "gift"

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

You think the weight of a human hand is relevant to this discussion? How much do you think hands differ in weight from human to human?

I would say a fair bit for sure, I'm sure Marciano's hands were a lot littler than Foreman's. Momentum = mass x velocity, so the amount of momentum in a punch is directly related to the mass of the object (fist). Of course it also depends on the velocity you can throw the punch, so a small fist could theoretically have the same momentum as a large fist but the punch would need to be thrown quicker.

 

[barnowl]

lolwut?



You'd be surprised how similar chopping wood (Foreman) and say, swinging a sledge-hammer (Liston), when done with specific form, are to punching. I'll give you a hint, it centers around hip rotation, and how the weight moves.

You beat me to it. Sledge/Axe/Framing Hammer/Forge hammer, you work all day with any of them you tend to hit way out proportion to your size. Train with a toothpick of blacksmith, when we get him to calm down and settle in to his punches you would think he was 200 pounds.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

Good question. It doesn't make much sense given how he punched, especially in his younger days. People who have fought both all claim Ernie Shavers hit harder, though.

 

[Discipulus]

I love chopping wood. I'd do it two or three times a week for exercise if I could. Unfortunately, I live in the suburbs.

I can't recall who said it--maybe Jack Dempsey--but chopping wood is so much better as an exercise than swinging a hammer at a tire. Just the fact that you can look at a massive pile of split logs after you're finished that wasn't there before is a major advantage. It's mental as well as physical exercise. A very stripped down version of making something with your hands while becoming stronger. I always find those things to be easier to fixate myself on than ones that just seem like simple exercise. I imagine smithing and other swinging work is similar.

 

[KO By Knee]

Hips it's all in the hips and how you use you muscles together.

Some fights don't use much hips they use mostly arm punches but at the same time that an give you speed, some fighters put the floor into their punch. I wish I could explain it better but if you get into the habit of making ever punch off a hip rotation you'll soon see the power it can bring.

Chopping wood is identical to boxing in the sense it teaches you how to generate power from your whole body and different ways to manipulate that ability.

Sledge hammer on a tire is the same thing.

 

[JayElectra]

I was just skimming this thread and thought I'd add that there were measurements out there for the size of the fist for many of the greatest HWs of all time.

These were from an old thread on boxingscene. Here is how they're listed by the poster 0Rooster4life0 and they were corroborated by a source back in the day (though he claimed to know them by heart) which is now a dead link. Anyway, this was his list:

John L Sullivan

HEIGHT - 5ft 10 1/2in
WEIGHT - 196lb
REACH - 74in
CHEST (NOR) - 43in
CHEST (EXP) - 48in
FIST - 14in

-------------------------------------------------

James J Corbett

HEIGHT - 6ft 1in
WEIGHT - 178lb
REACH - 73in
CHEST (NOR) - 38in
CHEST (EXP) - 42in
FIST - 12 3/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Jack Johnson

HEIGHT - 6ft 1 1/4in
WEIGHT - 192lb
REACH - 74in
CHEST (NOR) - 37 1/2in
CHEST (EXP) - 42 3/4in
FIST - 14in

-------------------------------------------------

Jess Willard

HEIGHT - 6ft 6 1/4in
WEIGHT - 230lbs
REACH - 83in
CHEST (NOR) - 46in
CHEST (EXP) - 49 1/2in
FIST - 14in

-------------------------------------------------

Jack Dempsey

HEIGHT - 6ft 0 3/4in
WEIGHT - 187lb
REACH - 77in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 46in
FIST - 11 1/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Gene Tunney

HEIGHT - 6ft 0 1/2in
WEIGHT - 189 1/2lb
REACH - 77in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 45in
FIST - 11 1/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Max Schmeling

HEIGHT - 6ft 1in
WEIGHT - 188lb
REACH - 76in
CHEST (NOR) - 43in
CHEST (EXP) - 47in
FIST - 12in

-------------------------------------------------

Primo Carnera

HEIGHT - 6ft 5 3/4in
WEIGHT - 260 1/2lb
REACH - 85 1/2in
CHEST (NOR) - 48in
CHEST (EXP) - 54in
FIST - 14 3/4in


-------------------------------------------------

Max Baer

HEIGHT - 6ft 2 1/2in
WEIGHT - 209 1/2lb
REACH - 81in
CHEST (NOR) - 44in
CHEST (EXP) - 47 1/2in
FIST - 12in

-------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Braddock

HEIGHT - 6ft 2 1/2in
WEIGHT - 193 3/4lb
REACH - 75in
CHEST (NOR) - 41in
CHEST (EXP) - 44in
FIST - 11 1/2in

-------------------------------------------------

Joe Louis

HEIGHT - 6ft 1 1/2in
WEIGHT - 197 1/4lb
REACH - 76in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 45in
FIST - 11 3/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Ezzard Charles

HEIGHT - 6ft 0in
WEIGHT - 181 3/4lb
REACH - 74in
CHEST (NOR) - 39in
CHEST (EXP) - 42in
FIST 12in

-------------------------------------------------

Jersey Joe Walcott

HEIGHT - 6ft 0in
WEIGHT - 194lb
REACH - 74in
CHEST (NOR) - 40in
CHEST (EXP) - 43in
FIST 12in

-------------------------------------------------

Rocky Marciano

HEIGHT - 5ft 10 1/4in
WEIGHT - 184lb
REACH - 68in
CHEST (NOR) - 39in
CHEST (EXP) - 42in
FIST - 11 1/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Floyd Patterson

HEIGHT - 6ft 0in
WEIGHT - 182 3/4lb
REACH - 71in
CHEST (NOR) - 41in
CHEST (EXP) - 42in
FIST - 12 3/4in

-------------------------------------------------

Sonny Liston

HEIGHT - 6ft 1in
WEIGHT - 214lb
REACH - 84in
CHEST (NOR) - 44in
CHEST (EXP) - 46 1/2in
FIST 15in

-------------------------------------------------

Muhammad Ali

HEIGHT - 6ft 3in
WEIGHT - 210 1/2lb
REACH - 84in
CHEST (NOR) - 43in
CHEST (EXP) - 45 1/2in
FIST 12 1/2in

-------------------------------------------------

Joe Frazier

HEIGHT - 5ft 11 1/2in
WEIGHT - 205lb
REACH - 73 1/2in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 44in
FIST - 13in

-------------------------------------------------

George Foreman

HEIGHT - 6ft 3in
WEIGHT - 217 1/2lb
REACH - 82in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 44 1/2in
FIST - 12in

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

13" fist checking in.

Anyways, my point wasn't that there isn't a difference at all between peoples hands. But, that the weight of similarly sized human's hands won't differ a relevant amount to affect KO power. It seems irrelevant to me in the case of what causes KO power to differ from person to person.

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Interesting way to think about that...

I wonder if there are examples of fighters who technically throw correct punches + they are fast and put their weight into the punch and still they are not able to generate power.

I don't think you could find an example like that. You can see when a guy fucked up in the power generating process. You can't consciously correct a mistake in your timing, but you can consciously perceive the mistake and begin a cascade of functions that correct that mistake. It's the same with how you can consciously decide to tie your shoes but you can't consciously move your fingers that fast and precisely.

An example of a guy that I think is missing something in his timing is Errol Spence. Some people think he's just a little slow, but I think he shifts his weight early and his arm moves late. His punches don't fly out from the shoulder because he only catches the tail end of the shift.

[Yt]VooN72RtPk8[/MEDIA]

 

[Sinister]

13" fist checking in.

Anyways, my point wasn't that there isn't a difference at all between peoples hands. But, that the weight of similarly sized human's hands won't differ a relevant amount to affect KO power. It seems irrelevant to me in the case of what causes KO power to differ from person to person.

Definitely not irrelevant. If one wrecking ball is shaped similarly, but weighs less than the other wrecking ball, the other one has potential to do more damage.

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

Definitely not irrelevant. If one wrecking ball is shaped similarly, but weighs less than the other wrecking ball, the other one has potential to do more damage.

If one of those balls is 1000lbs and the other is 1001lbs? There's not going to be a noticeable difference in the ability to do damage.

For hand weight to be relevant RE: KO power? It'd have to be a significant difference in weight. Which just seems unlikely if the fighters are in the same weight class.

 

[AndyTran]

If one of those balls is 1000lbs and the other is 1001lbs? There's not going to be a noticeable difference in the ability to do damage.

For hand weight to be relevant RE: KO power? It'd have to be a significant difference in weight. Which just seems unlikely if the fighters are in the same weight class.

yeah
I think the mass is not only the weight of the fist but the weight of the whole body if one shifts weight properly.

 

[Azam]

I think some frames are better at generating & maintaining that leverage from point A to point B without much loss in energy transfer to each part while leveraging a strike.

The hand obviously plays an important role in transferring the leverage generated onto the target - a strong hand and just as importantly a strong wrist/forearm/shoulders etc contribute.

Stability is important when leveraging strikes - I suppose it's more the finer detail as if the linkages in the chain aren't stable you inevitably have leakages in energy at each successive point. I think stability plays a huge role in leveraging strikes - you have weak wrists for example a lot of the leverage generated is lost.

I think fast twitch fibers also probably play a huge role.

 

[PivotPunch]

I think some frames are better at generating & maintaining that leverage from point A to point B without much loss in energy transfer to each part while leveraging a strike.

The hand obviously plays an important role in transferring the leverage generated onto the target - a strong hand and just as importantly a strong wrist/forearm/shoulders etc contribute.

Stability is important when leveraging strikes - I suppose it's more the finer detail as if the linkages in the chain aren't stable you inevitably have leakages in energy at each successive point. I think stability plays a huge role in leveraging strikes - you have weak wrists for example a lot of the leverage generated is lost.

I think fast twitch fibers also probably play a huge role.

I love watching Foreman especially a young one. old foreman was bigger and had still super heavy strikes but he had even more akwwards punching technique and young Foreman had on top of the weight of his punches really fast hands as well.

It's also insane looking at the weigh he stops people he can seemingly get power everywhere while someone like Tyson for example still has to get proper leverage with tyson you see the effort and explosive power he puts into punches in his movement Foreman seemingly just touches you out of awkward position and it's still enough to hurt you.
Wladimir klitschko tbf someone does the same with his left hook but he has textbook punching form even though his left hook is incredibly short but Foreman does whatever he wants with every pucnh and it works

 

[Sinister]

If one of those balls is 1000lbs and the other is 1001lbs? There's not going to be a noticeable difference in the ability to do damage.

For hand weight to be relevant RE: KO power? It'd have to be a significant difference in weight. Which just seems unlikely if the fighters are in the same weight class.

I think you are trying too hard to not get it. People feel a difference in OUNCES of glove size, but you don't think they'd feel a difference of fist size?

Of course it makes a difference.

Lots of cool info there, thanks.Sure, George Foreman's physiology is better for hitting hard. No disputing that. But Paulie has a reputation for being pillow-fisted (7 KOs in 34 wins), and I would ask if that is purely the result of brittle hands, or if it's that plus a combination of him not being able to skillfully maneuver opponents into solid blows (since the boxer you mentioned seems to be in the unenviable position of not having enough athleticism to throw hard out of his stance, and not having enough technical skill to out point the best in the world). And if it is accountable to (comparatively) low skill, then surely he could stop more guys if he attempted to use their momentum against them. And that's pretty much what I mean. Someone who is genetically unfit for high level athletics might not be able to train for a long time and be able to knock out a professional boxer, but compared to random people, with some knowledge of body weight and timing, they can be startlingly effective, to the point of possibly being able to do something that they once thought was impossible (i.e. knock someone out, if it gets to that point).

I mean, Lyoto Machida's punch off the bat is probably not insubstantial, but it's not the kind of blow that would floor someone unless they were in a compromised position. Yet, when he is able to intercept an opponent, he can knock them out badly. I would submit that this is accountable mainly to skill.

To be sure, some people have a higher physical ceiling than others. But I do believe that at least 80% of people can reach that physical ceiling with hard work, however high it may or may not be. That might not give them an edge over a professional boxer, but it would probably allow them to do things that others convince themselves is something that that person was "born to do" when really they have simply dedicated themselves to improving.Isn't the purpose of lowering the center of gravity to ensure that punches come "from the ground up", though?Could you define what aspects of his physiology contributes to leverage in this case more specifically-- is it, say, the length of his limbs?Yeah, it's definitely a combination of factors. That's interesting about Frazier too.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Paulie is only "feather-fisted" because of two things, the smallness and fragility of his hands. He's broken his right hand about 8 times throughout his career. I don't think it's any lack of skill considering his skill is the only reason he was able to compete on the World level AND win a Title. You don't say a guy is un-skilled when he can do that sort of thing without the ability to throw his punches as hard as he'd like. But like I said, it's not like Paulie wasn't able to ever stop ANYONE. In fact he won his Title via stoppage.

I would submit that Machida's ability to stop guys is just as much based on MMA fighters' general lack of skill in not being put in compromising positions. Boxers are much much more educated on how to not get knocked out by punches.

Anyone can reach their physical ceiling if they so chose to. I don't see why that point needs to be made. But no, it won't convince them that they can only do something others are only "born to do"...or at least it shouldn't. It should only enlighten them on what they were actually born to do. Because either way, they're still operating within THEIR genetic potential, not other people's.

As for leverage, it's basically what happened when George was taught punching position, combined with his physiology (and the other factors such as fast-twitch muscle fiber strength, hand size, tendon strength, etc.). But yes, limb length, and also that his torso is fairly proportionate. He's just an effective lever. Why is one lever more effective than another? It moves weight better than the other one. But George was also skilled. I don't think he hit much harder than Ron Lyle, but Lyle wasn't as skilled at things such as control of distance, timing, and positioning a George was. So the two were separated by that.