What ligament is injured here?

[thecas]

Yesterday I was rolling, being the uke in a kata [Though it was no-gi bjj]

Anyway, it was a sub being performed. The submission mainly arises from a rotation of your kness. Ok, now just lie down, with your left knee up. Now turn your lower leg clock wise, just as a clock hand would. It was not a Heek hook(HH damages mainly ACL). What did it damage?

The problem was that when the person did it, I did not feel discomfort. There was a stretch, but no discomfort[shld you tap where there is no discomfort?]. However I woke up with an ache till now. No pain and can walk properly still tho.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

The submission mainly arises from a rotation of your kness. Ok, now just lie down, with your left knee up. Now turn your lower leg clock wise, just as a clock hand would. It was not a Heek hook(HH damages mainly ACL). What did it damage?

QUOTE]

Please clarify.
Left knee up and shin parallel to floor, or leg bent and foot still on floor?
Rotate the whole calf/shin/lower leg clockwise, or rotate just your foot clockwise (which is to say rotate your ankle so your foot moves like a clock hand)?

Pictures please if you can...or just more description. Thanks.

 

[thecas]

I get you.

The whole lower leg moves clockwise, so your first description is correct. I had presented it simple, but I now give the most detailed one: Actually it is that I lay down, with my left leg fully bent at knee so my foot is close to my butt. Now, with your back and hips remaining flat throughout, pull/push your foot such that your foot/heel[To not make it complex, he can hold your heel and push it up too and get the same thing] will come towards your groin from the outside, and your thigh gets to move as little as possible.

I edit in this portion: The torrei, when he did it, was holding a reverse triangle choke on me, with me lying flat on the mat, my back to the mat. He is in North South, on top of me, and having the reverse triangle, so will make my hands irrelevant. Now, he is to be slightly to his left, and pull my left leg towards himself and slightly upwards too.

 

[Bama Zulu]

Do you actually know where the ACL is located?

 

[Rinpoche]

Sounds like the lateral collateral ligament.

Doesn

 

[-V-MuayThai-V-]

I think I might know what you're talking about. I dont know the name of the ligament, but does it feel like a weird pain on the outside of your leg right below the knee towards the front. I think it's the soleus muscle, but I dont know what the ligament is. I think I hurt myself there when I was doing squats with weight that was too heavy (long time ago, i've learned my lesson).

 

[VanDamme]

It sounds like your basically still heel hooking yourself, you're simply doing it at a different angle.

Twisting the knee is not good for your ligaments (duh), but your MCL (medial collateral ligament) and your LCL (lateral collateral ligament) can handle the stress of twisting better than your ACL can, but this doesnt mean that your ACL will always be injured when those locks are applied. The knee is just a poorly designed joint anyways- if the human body were a science fair, the knee would get a F


Anyways, since it is entirely possible to injure any number of ligaments in your knee, your best bet (if its a serious injury) is to go to a doctor for an MRI- MRI's tell the whole story, and without one, anyones guess is as good as anyone elses.

Simple ways you can isolate the pain and possible ligament that your hurt would be finding out which positions it hurts your in.

For example, can your pull your foot to your chest, resembling of a rubber guard setup or such, without pain? If you feel pain, thats often your LCL (named lateral because its on the outside of your knee).

Can you sit on your heels, in the way that your kneeling on the ground and sitting back on your heels as if you would while lining up in Judo. If you feel pain, that is often a good indication that you injuried your ACL.

If it hurts to turn your leg out, say like a muay thai fighter who opens his hips and plants on his foot for a roundhouse kick, thats a good indication that you've injuried your MCL- its the same setup as the LCL, its simply located in the part of your knee thats closer to the middle of your body (if you were to draw your body in half lengthways, hence "medial").

PCL injuries are exceptionally rare, I doubt you injured that. Bear in mind that it is possible to injure more than one ligament at one time.

Aside from ligament damage, its also possible to have torn your cartilage (also referred to as your meniscus). The meniscus is a lining of cartilage on either side of your knee joint that allows for a little lube when your knee moves (and prevents your upper bone from grinding against your lower bone when you bend your knee). Torn cartilage is only an immediate problem if you find that your leg "locks." If you find that your knee does this, that often means theres a piece of cartilage thats getting caught when you move your knee- all they would need to do is simply remove that small piece, and you're good to go.

See if any of these symptoms match yours

 

[Rinpoche]

The knee is a great joint, if you

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

I have trouble picturing which way your knee was twisted. It sounds to me like the MCL or LCL. If the pain is on the outside of the knee then you likely injured your LCL. If the pain is on the inside of the knee then you have likely injured your MCL.

ACL is located on the back of the knee. It's unlikely that you injured it with the motion described.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

I get you.

The whole lower leg moves clockwise, so your first description is correct. I had presented it simple, but I now give the most detailed one: Actually it is that I lay down, with my left leg fully bent at knee so my foot is close to my butt. Now, with your back and hips remaining flat throughout, pull/push your foot such that your foot/heel[To not make it complex, he can hold your heel and push it up too and get the same thing] will come towards your groin from the outside, and your thigh gets to move as little as possible.

I edit in this portion: The torrei, when he did it, was holding a reverse triangle choke on me, with me lying flat on the mat, my back to the mat. He is in North South, on top of me, and having the reverse triangle, so will make my hands irrelevant. Now, he is to be slightly to his left, and pull my left leg towards himself and slightly upwards too.

I think I got you.
Your LCL is getting stretched out and your lateral meniscus is also involved, due to the torsional compressive forces on it from your lower leg getting rotated inward, with the upper leg stable, combined with the slight upward forces on the foot/heel.
The menisci can handle quite a bit of compressive force (i.e. from walking, running, jumping, etc.). It is the rotational, shearing compression that it isn't as capable of withstanding. That's exactly how people tear their menisci.
You probably just sustained a mild sprain of the LCL with no long term damage of the meniscus...so mild that you could continue with the activity but only noticed mild symptoms afterwards, which resolved quickly. Consider yourself lucky.

Just my guess.

 

[Brendon Katz]

id say mcl , knee cap is pushin medially and so would stretch that.

 

[thecas]

I think I might know what you're talking about. I dont know the name of the ligament, but does it feel like a weird pain on the outside of your leg right below the knee towards the front. I think it's the soleus muscle, but I dont know what the ligament is. I think I hurt myself there when I was doing squats with weight that was too heavy (long time ago, i've learned my lesson).

Hey, I think you got it correct. In however there is a general ache around most of the knee too.

It is not pain but aches.


To Van: Yeah, I feel strain when I have to kneel as you described. Most prolly ACL?

Sigh, I am gonna skip class. V-MT-V, how long did you rest for? Also, is MRI the one where they put you through a chamber like that?

 

[thecas]

Just to update: day3 now. the ache is replaced by just 'a feeling'. aches only when i kneel. Guess tis no biggie.. but at least a lesson how vulnerable knees are.

Maybe knees are this way bcoz when we were monkey like beings, stability has to be substituted with flexibility to climb trees.