What leg lock entry from bottom open guard?

[Kforcer]

Anyone: if so many guys were systematically leg locking from the guard with control like dds/craig jones for as long as some of you claim; please post videos.

If this is your claim, that's different. If you are going to claim, however, that people were only inverting into leg-attacks from guard, that's not true. Now if you are going to say that the DDS guys had better control than anyone before them or whatever, that is a separate matter and actually also a little more subjective.

I don't have videos of the last tournament I did, but it was one of the few times I finished with a leglock that didn't start from a standing entry. And I'm guessing it was from butterfly half-guard, because that's just one of the number-one places for someone who favors leglocks to attack from. I have photos of the finish, but I don't know if I have photos of what preceded it. One reason I don't quite remember what preceded the finish is because I can basically take for granted that it was from butterfly half-guard.

 

[Kforcer]

But look at Satoru Kitaoka, Marcello Brigadeiro, Sanae Kikuta, Royler Gracie, Funaki, Katsuya Toida, Erik Paulson, Babalu (first guy I remember illustrating the class half-guard to leg attack transition), Dean Lister (Lister did half-guard to leg-attack all the time, I remember people mentioning it to me since attacking from half-guard on bottom was my go to). Minowa would shoot for doubles and drop to butterfly and into a leg attack all the time. I'm sure he also had plenty of attacks from bottom half-guard as well. Attacking the legs from bottom half-guard is not rare. Same with butterfly.

I'm sure you're familiar with the back-step and front-spin attacks from the top in half-guard. Anyone who understands those attacks has to understand that you can have the same options from bottom. The conditions are of course, not identical, but obviously, if you can do one, you can do the other, you just have to make sure you get the necessary space on bottom to make the transition.

 

[nefti]

If this is your claim, that's different. If you are going to claim, however, that people were only inverting into leg-attacks from guard, that's not true. Now if you are going to say that the DDS guys had better control than anyone before them or whatever, that is a separate matter and actually also a little more subjective.

I don't have videos of the last tournament I did, but it was one of the few times I finished with a leglock that didn't start from a standing entry. And I'm guessing it was from butterfly half-guard, because that's just one of the number-one places for someone who favors leglocks to attack from. I have photos of the finish, but I don't know if I have photos of what preceded it. One reason I don't quite remember what preceded the finish is because I can basically take for granted that it was from butterfly half-guard.

Is the tournament footage like 10 years old or something?

 

[Kforcer]

Is the tournament footage like 10 years old or something?

Well, the last time I competed was 2014 and it was one of the few times I finished with a leglock that wasn't from standing. I went for an Imanari and whiffed and eventually got a toe-hold. And I'm (relatively) sure it was from half-guard.

I mean, in my case, in actual competition, almost every leg attack was off a rolling entry, because that's my favorite thing to do. I already admitted that. But I did them from half and butterfly in practice all the time. And I know I wasn't the only one or close to it. And I don't think I'm taking anything away from DDS. I'm just saying, attacking from butterfly and half-guard with leglocks is not that rare, or at least, wasn't that rare among people who focused on leg attacks. That's not a dig at them whatsoever. They do great work. But attacking the legs from those positions, that's not a new thing. In a lot of ways, it is an obvious thing.

 

[nefti]

Well, the last time I competed was 2014 and it was one of the few times I finished with a leglock that wasn't from standing. I went for an Imanari and whiffed and eventually got a toe-hold. And I'm sure it was from half-guard.

I mean, in my case, almost every leg attack was off a rolling entry, because that's my favorite thing to do. I already admitted that. But I did them from half and butterfly in practice all the time. And I know I wasn't the only one or close to it. And I don't think I'm taking anything away from DDS. I'm just saying, attacking from butterfly and half-guard with leglocks is not that rare, or at least, wasn't that rare among people who focused on leg attacks. That's not a dig at them whatsoever. They do great work. But attacking the legs from those positions, that's not a new thing. In a lot of ways, it is an obvious thing.

Before dds leg locks from the bottom was rudimentary and lacked the systematic control like bjj upper body submissions. Im talking about leg locks within a bjj philosphy. Doing imianri rolls look cool and all bur i consider them like flying armbars. Not really bjj bread and butter.

But youre a catch guy right? Im talking about how danaher intergrated leglocks to the bjj guard.

 

[Kforcer]

Before dds leg locks from the bottom was rudimentary and lacked the systematic control like bjj upper body submissions. Im talking about leg locks within a bjj philosphy. Doing imianri rolls look cool and all bur i consider them like flying armbars. Not really bjj bread and butter.

But youre a catch guy right? Im talking about how danaher intergrated leglocks to the bjj guard.

If you are saying that their overall system was innovative, I got you. And people for a long time have been too cavalier about hiding their feet and not enough people have emphasized control in the leglock game. And some of the best leglockers have, IMO, counted too much on their proficiency in finishing and neglected aspects of position such as hiding the feet.

But to say that all leglocks from guard involved inversion is exaggerating. Royler attacked from butterfly with leglocks all the time. One famous instance is in his match with Genki Sudo. I'm pretty sure Babalu--and like I said, he's the first guy I saw do the half-guard leglock transition--secured his heel-hook on Chael Sonnen from half-guard. And like I said before, Dean Lister would hang out in half-guard and attack with them as well.

The leglock entry from butterfly where you put your hands in the opponent's armpits, fall back to elevate him and slide a leg through for the leglock is a classic standby you can find on basically any leglock instructional from back in the day.

But I mean, DDS's success speaks for itself anyways, competitively and in terms of the ripples they have made in BJJ and grappling as a whole. Trust me, I'm not trying to take anything away from them. Actually, I'd buy their DVD's if they weren't so expensive.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Before dds leg locks from the bottom was rudimentary and lacked the systematic control like bjj upper body submissions. Im talking about leg locks within a bjj philosphy. Doing imianri rolls look cool and all bur i consider them like flying armbars. Not really bjj bread and butter.

But youre a catch guy right? Im talking about how danaher intergrated leglocks to the bjj guard.

This isn't true. There were several from all sorts of people from myself to Palhares that had systematic leg locks before DDS.

For example:

I learned that from Palhares before the DDS.

 

[nefti]

One random transition is a system.

 

[Os3y3ris]

One random transition is a system.

No, its PART of a system



Then there's chase drills, transition drills, technical breakdowns etc. Like a decades worth of material even if I stripped out BJJ positioning, which I didn't. And this is a system that does work on BJJ black belts and advanced submission grapplers.

DDS is very good at leg locks, but they're not the first ones or the only ones to have a working leg lock system.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Basically, the way I was taught, we only dealt in series and systems, especially when writing a curriculum.

 

[Kforcer]

@Masakatsu Funaki #1

 

[nefti]

No, its PART of a system



Then there's chase drills, transition drills, technical breakdowns etc. Like a decades worth of material even if I stripped out BJJ positioning, which I didn't. And this is a system that does work on BJJ black belts and advanced submission grapplers.

DDS is very good at leg locks, but they're not the first ones or the only ones to have a working leg lock system.

It seems like you have trouble with comprehension so im just gonna repeat. Dds is known for systematically incorporating leglocks withing the concept and priciples of the guard.

Now if you claim to have the same systematic controlled leglocking system from the guard post videos of you competing so we can see your system in action. Its much better than random clips of techniques. Right? I can ppst comepetitob videos of dds guys easy. You have been competing for a long time and i am sure you have tons of competition footage.

Again i am looking for your so called system of guard based leg locks, its control, its efficiency, how it intergrates with sweeps and other attacks. I dont care if you win or loose. I just want to see it in action.

 

[Kforcer]

It seems like you have trouble with comprehension so im just gonna repeat. Dds is known for systematically incorporating leglocks withing the concept and priciples of the guard.

Now if you claim to have the same systematic controlled leglocking system from the guard post videos of you competing so we can see your system in action. Its much better than random clips of techniques. Right? I can ppst comepetitob videos of dds guys easy. You have been competing for a long time and i am sure you have tons of competition footage.

Again i am looking for your so called system of guard based leg locks, its control, its efficiency, how it intergrates with sweeps and other attacks. I dont care if you win or loose. I just want to see it in action.

All I know is I'm--sort of--shocked if you really have never seen people doing leglocks from half-guard, butterfly half-guard or or butterfly with zero inversion until DDS. But I guess that you don't really doubt me about that, if I understand, but are really just saying that you feel that their system refined principles of control and efficiency when it comes to leglocks, is that right? That's one thing. But they definitely weren't the first to attack with leglocks from guard positions without inverting.

 

[Os3y3ris]

It seems like you have trouble with comprehension so im just gonna repeat. Dds is known for systematically incorporating leglocks withing the concept and priciples of the guard.

Now if you claim to have the same systematic controlled leglocking system from the guard post videos of you competing so we can see your system in action. Its much better than random clips of techniques. Right? I can ppst comepetitob videos of dds guys easy. You have been competing for a long time and i am sure you have tons of competition footage.

Again i am looking for your so called system of guard based leg locks, its control, its efficiency, how it intergrates with sweeps and other attacks. I dont care if you win or loose. I just want to see it in action.

Sure. Here's butterfly half.



Here's butterfly half with guard retention:

 

[Kforcer]

Scott Sonnon was one guy who was really trying for a time to market just what nefti is talking about, a systematic, position and control-oriented approach to leglocks (not that nobody did that, but the stereotype was that going for leglocks meant giving up position and that people who went for them were positionally unsound, etc.). Scott Sonnon made a lot of grand claims and alienated himself from people, most especially the sambo community, but if you look at his material, it actually has a lot to recommend.

It does have to be admitted that, although things weren't as dire as nefti claims, there were all too many people, even among good leglockers, who didn't think enough about things like control, retention or hiding your feet. A lot of people--including some people I've trained with--staked too much in their ability to finish things instead of really thinking about how to secure and maintain control of the leg in a way that put you entirely on the offense and your opponent on the defense.

People reacted negatively to Sonnon, but he did actually make some legit points which DDS later on addressed. It was never true that all leglockers had bad positioning or were unsystematic in their approach, but certainly, that aspect of the leg game hadn't been effectively marketed before DDS. Sonnon did make the attempt though. And I actually liked his book a lot, but if you want to buy it now, it is close to 100 bucks. I lent it to a former student and never saw it again.

 

[Kforcer]

Sure. Here's butterfly half.



Here's butterfly half with guard retention:

Nice work. Butterfly half-guard is like the third base of leglocks.

 

[nefti]

Scott Sonnon was one guy who was really trying for a time to market just what nefti is talking about, a systematic, position and control-oriented approach to leglocks (not that nobody did that, but the stereotype was that going for leglocks meant giving up position and that people who went for them were positionally unsound, etc.). Scott Sonnon made a lot of grand claims and alienated himself from people, most especially the sambo community, but if you look at his material, it actually has a lot to recommend.

It does have to be admitted that, although things weren't as dire as nefti claims, there were all too many people, even among good leglockers, who didn't think enough about things like control, retention or hiding your feet. A lot of people--including some people I've trained with--staked too much in their ability to finish things instead of really thinking about how to secure and maintain control of the leg in a way that put you entirely on the offense and your opponent on the defense.

People reacted negatively to Sonnon, but he did actually make some legit points which DDS later on addressed. It was never true that all leglockers had bad positioning or were unsystematic in their approach, but certainly, that aspect of the leg game hadn't been effectively marketed before DDS. Sonnon did make the attempt though. And I actually liked his book a lot, but if you want to buy it now, it is close to 100 bucks. I lent it to a former student and never saw it again.

I had his saddle series, i saw it before. He just couldnt get it together. he knew there was something there, something potentially good... he just couldnt bring it together.

 

[Kforcer]

I had his saddle series, i saw it before. He just couldnt get it together. he knew there was something there, something potentially good... he just couldnt bring it together.

It didn't help that people hated him and actively campaigned against him.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Nice work. Butterfly half-guard is like the third base of leglocks.

Thanks. And I agree. When I was developing my guard I learned a complete open guard with sweeps and stuff and then sheared off any sweep that wasn't a sub until I had nothing but off balanced subs and guard retention and recovery.

So I go to sweep, then throw subs through the openings the sweep created. Then its retention and recovery, then I do it again. I have other flows and moves of course, but heel hook from half butterfly is ace. Also works from the top with the same leg positioning.

Anyways, point is there are a lot of technical, comprehensive and effective leg locks systems outside of DDS and there have been for years.

 

[nefti]

It didn't help that people hated him and actively campaigned against him.

No, he just didnt know what he had, didnt have any success nor did he produce any champions based in leg locks.