What else besides BJJ?

[blanko]

yea but who has paulson produced in his many years as coach. Yea he trained barnett some but barnett was also trained by japanese catch guys as well as did judo.

 

[IrishBeatDown****]

as i said the better fighters are BJJ artists. this, i feel is attributed to the fact that BJJ has a longer more wide spread history...

don't get me wrong, there is nothing youw ill get from a CSW class that you couldn't learn in BJJ, however CSW was designed specifically with MMA in mind... BJJ wasn;t. so, in that manner, i feel it is the better art for a mixed martial artist to start with... there is no gi, CSW incorporates striking, take downs, positioning, ground control, submissions etc... it is a system of BJJ that is not yet widely known, but offers a trainee a more specialized approach IF they are studdying the art with the intention of fighting. IMHO

 

[Strykerx]

BJJ is NOT the only way to learn a good ground game, hell it might not even be the BEST way to develop a good ground game... many very talented MMA fighters have made their careers on other fighting systems. Paulson CSW for example is gaining a pretty huge following and in many ways is far more practical than BJJ for MMA application. now, because BJJ has been around a lot longer and is a lot more widespread BETTER martial artists study BJJ but CSW is the better martial art in my book... give in a decade or so and it will start to emerge as a very effective ground combat system. i know its a staple of the extreme couture gyms.

I am very interested to know why you think this? CSW seems more suited to veteran wrestlers. As a a beginner in the grappling scene what can one gain from CSW that will persuade one from Jiu jitsu?

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

yes paulson did train BJJ but he developed his own system from it called CSW... this is in no way different than the way the Gracies studdied JJ and adapted their own system... it is my opinion that CSW is a form of BJJ that has evolved for the purposes of MMA. i think it is the superior art to train for the purpose.

Nope. I did a lot of CSW and incorporate a lot of it into my grappling. Paulson was a JKD guy and developed CSW before he started BJJ. It was mostly based on his own strengths and training, including boxing, muay thai, judo, and shooto. Paulson is now a BJJ black belt, but he wasn't when he started CSW.

In many places, there are many more CSW places than BJJ places. But I don't think CSW is replacing BJJ. Overall, there are many more BJJ places. BJJ is growing at a much faster rate too. CSW is not better than jiu-jitsu. It just has a different focus. As a JKD guy, Paulson would probably tell you the same. Everyone is different and has different strengths.

I personally feel it is good as a complement to BJJ, and the grappling flows are essential to BJJ too. But the grappling and striking skills can be developed independently too and combined in CSW training effectively. However, it isn't necessary or even best for everyone or even most people.

Saying CSW is better than BJJ is like saying McDonalds is better than Burger King. They are more alike than not and it comes down to personal preference only.

 

[IrishBeatDown****]

Nope. I did a lot of CSW and incorporate a lot of it into my grappling. Paulson was a JKD guy and developed CSW before he started BJJ. It was mostly based on his own strengths and training, including boxing, muay thai, judo, and shooto. Paulson is now a BJJ black belt, but he wasn't when he started CSW.

In many places, there are many more CSW places than BJJ places. But I don't think CSW is replacing BJJ. Overall, there are many more BJJ places. BJJ is growing at a much faster rate too. CSW is not better than jiu-jitsu. It just has a different focus. As a JKD guy, Paulson would probably tell you the same. Everyone is different and has different strengths.

I personally feel it is good as a complement to BJJ, and the grappling flows are essential to BJJ too. But the grappling and striking skills can be developed independently too and combined in CSW training effectively. However, it isn't necessary or even best for everyone or even most people.

Saying CSW is better than BJJ is like saying McDonalds is better than Burger King. They are more alike than not and it comes down to personal preference only.

solid arguments and i actually learned a bit from your post. however i feel the point i am trying to get across is being misunderstood... i don't mean to say that CSW is BETTER than BJJ by any means, i feel it is a better fit for MMA because of the nature of it... BJJ is a pure grappling art and as such traditionally will not teach you ways to seamlessly flow from striking to submissions or vice versa... at least as i understand the art. admittedly i have never studdied BJJ because there are no schools in my area.

anyway to answer the other guys question, why do i feel that CSW is a better place to start, good question. CSW alone is not a good place to start but i feel if you take CSW in addition to a muay thai class you are building a great striking base while developing a basic but effective take down and ground game. i have wrestled folkstyle and greco-roman since grade school and 'Rastled since i was knee high...

to be honest i am shocked i didn't get flamed out the ass for these posts... lota guys get pretty touchy when someone talks about their BJJ.

 

[Valiss]

Well considering Kimbo's age and time training, I'm starting to think he would have been better off trying to be a smoker for a striking org. I mean then he can just focus on his punching for KOs and low kicks as well. Obviously K-1 would eat him alive... hmmm or maybe some lower cage orgs who need a star.

It sounds like he'll never make top 50 (much less top 10 or 20) because he is just too inexperinced at his age and lacks the time to train before he gets too old.

 

[delfam]

The problem with BJJ is that even if you are great at BJJ, you still have to get your man on the ground, which is why I think CSW. I have just started traing and I've picked up Muay Thai and CSW as my martial arts, because BJJ does nothing if your not on the ground.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

solid arguments and i actually learned a bit from your post. however i feel the point i am trying to get across is being misunderstood... i don't mean to say that CSW is BETTER than BJJ by any means, i feel it is a better fit for MMA because of the nature of it... BJJ is a pure grappling art and as such traditionally will not teach you ways to seamlessly flow from striking to submissions or vice versa... at least as i understand the art. admittedly i have never studdied BJJ because there are no schools in my area.

anyway to answer the other guys question, why do i feel that CSW is a better place to start, good question. CSW alone is not a good place to start but i feel if you take CSW in addition to a muay thai class you are building a great striking base while developing a basic but effective take down and ground game. i have wrestled folkstyle and greco-roman since grade school and 'Rastled since i was knee high...

to be honest i am shocked i didn't get flamed out the ass for these posts... lota guys get pretty touchy when someone talks about their BJJ.

Well I practically started with CSW and no-gi grappling. I think it was a good start, and those shooto lockflows are very good. They helped me learn to think in terms of principles and chains. But, I felt I learned much more wrestling in my grappling/bjj club and at my judo classes rather than the CSW place that I was attending. We did takedowns and emphansized the top, but it was assumed you knew wrestling and takedowns. However, I didn't get any good takedowns there. Maybe a few tricks, but it was taught about the same as in most BJJ classes, unfortunately. I feel this is a problem with CSW.

I like the grappling with strikes drill that we do in CSW a lot too. I've brought a lot of this with me to BJJ and I try to use it to get ready for tournaments. However, I feel it is more the teacher than the art when it comes to CSW and BJJ.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

The problem with BJJ is that even if you are great at BJJ, you still have to get your man on the ground, which is why I think CSW. I have just started traing and I've picked up Muay Thai and CSW as my martial arts, because BJJ does nothing if your not on the ground.

What's the difference between an MMA school that has CSW and muay thai versus an MMA school that has BJJ and muay thai? Nothing, except you'll get more gi work at the BJJ place.

 

[sambosteve]

What's the difference between an MMA school that has CSW and muay thai versus an MMA school that has BJJ and muay thai? Nothing, except you'll get more gi work at the BJJ place.

That depends on the coaches really. If one simply trains BJJ and Muay Thai, that does not necessarily help in MMA...if your coaches don't work with you to fill the gap between the two arts. One of the things about the way I was taught combat sambo (and I suspect CSW as well) is the work on transitions from striking to clinch to takedown to position to sub. Simply training two arts is not good enough. It is the middle grounds that get neglected in many clubs that simply teach this art and that combined.

Regarding which grappling system is best? That really is all about the coach and what the student takes to best IMO. I personally don't think BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Catch, whatever hold supremecy over one another. It comes down to coaching and who knows what they do better.

I would also point out that sambo has an excellent track record in MMA. Just look at the numbers...so few sambo guys have done so well and reached very high levels. I would venture to say the percentage wise, sambo fighters have a much higher success rate than BJJ guys. This is not to say that they are better, but just to comment on the fact that there are very few sambo fighters in A level MMA and they have all generally done very well.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

That's obvious that they have to be integrated. No MMA school worth salt wouldn't have an integrated class. Which is why you are correct: it comes down to the coaches and the individual.

As for Sambo have a better percentage, well you're not biased... ;-) There are fewer sambo schools at least in the US. I've found that the more popular it becomes, the wider the Bell curve.

 

[omgitsrick]

Now you are implying that BJJ is the only thing worth training?

you think Fedor has a BJJ coach? I would wager no

loads of serious MMAists that got their skills from judo, sambo or catch schools

WOuldn't you love a private with Aoki? you think he learned his stuff in BJJ?

BJJ and Judo I believe.