Opinion What does "Make America Great Again" mean to you? And how do you see it being great again?

[avenue94]

This is ungodly rare. I live in the bluest area of Indiana (and even then it's still just purple). Biden and Trump flags in front of so many houses. Let me ask you this... take a guess how many Biden flags had an American flag on/next/near it.... ZERO. So what does that tell you have liberals.

That there are other ways to show love for ones country than a piece of fabric?

 

[Deorum]

Not to derail this thread but... From what I have seen from all of the foreign movies that got dumped into Netflix these last couple years (due to writers strike) it really made me appreciate American movies more.

I had no problem with it

I have absolutely no idea about that. I can only recall watching like five movies that have been released in the last 10 years: Dead Reckoning, Top Gun: Maverick, Fallout, Rogue Nation, Bone Tomahawk. The number of television shows is 0. I'm not big on escapism or sedentary entertainment. No video games since I was like 14 either.

EDIT: A handful of DC based movies too I guess, though mostly at the behest of my son. I was down for seeing Keaton Batman again; too bad it was one of the most disastrous bombs ever.

 

[Deorum]

One thing that unites extremists on both sides is the incredibly obviously wrong belief that things keep getting worse. I think it's because unhappy people are drawn to both extremism and pessimism.

I'm still preparing for the apocalypse regardless. Not because I actually think the country is going to collapse; it's just fun and incorporates various hobbies that conveniently double for useful survival skills. I'm a minimalist though, so I don't hoard a lot of shit like stereotypical preppers.

 

[Loiosh]

I have absolutely no idea about that. I can only recall watching like five movies that have been released in the last 10 years: Dead Reckoning, Top Gun: Maverick, Fallout, Rogue Nation, Bone Tomahawk. The number of television shows is 0. I'm not big on escapism or sedentary entertainment. No video games since I was like 14 either.

EDIT: A handful of DC based movies too I guess, though mostly at the behest of my son. I was down for seeing Keaton Batman again; too bad it was one of the most disastrous bombs ever.

I haven't read most of this thread, but have you spoken to what "making America great again" means to you?

Putting politics aside I can envision an approach that would be good for everyone, but obviously Trump isn't the man for that job.

I loathe nationalism but I'm certain there are ideals and goals the vast majority of citizens would agree are undeniably good. The problem is, it's incredibly complex and what people want is inextricably linked to social status. Also, I believe power should be taken away from the corporations, but how much of what already makes a capitalist society great relies on that power?

I don't think there are any easy answers and I don't trust anyone selling making any country great again without being incredibly clear what they mean so people can vote for it or not.

I knew even typing it it's obviously silly of me to say leaving politics out of it, it's all politics.

 

[Deorum]

I haven't read most of this thread, but have you spoken to what "making America great again" means to you?

Putting politics aside I can envision an approach that would be good for everyone, but obviously Trump isn't the man for that job.

I loathe nationalism but I'm certain there are ideals and goals the vast majority of citizens would agree are undeniably good. The problem is, it's incredibly complex and what people want is inextricably linked to social status. Also, I believe power should be taken away from the corporations, but how much of what already makes a capitalist society great relies on that power?

I don't think there are any easy answers and I don't trust anyone selling making any country great again without being incredibly clear what they mean so people can vote for it or not.

I knew even typing it it's obviously silly of me to say leaving politics out of it, it's all politics.

I have not, although I think there was a fairly productive convo with Sinister earlier in the thread if you want to read. I'm kind of staying silent because I have a similar sort of thread in mind for July aside from the charged Trump/MAGA element.

The core of national existence and identity should be defined by the Constitution as amended. It's not only the world's longest surviving charter of national government but a historic enlightenment document for individual liberty. It's something every American shares lineage to by way of mere citizenship, whether inborn or naturalized. The country collectively possesses a surplus of natural resources, national treasures, world-class cultural institutions, and industries of incredible achievement that every citizen can take pride in.

I cannot agree with this in a Country where we have an unelected entity doing "constitutional interpretation" while having wealthy sugar daddies, and everyone just kinda shrugs their shoulders that there seems to be no way to protect against it. Constitutional originalism is one of the most absurd modern contentions I've ever heard, and it flies in the face of what the Founders themselves wrote about their intentions with the constitution. I believe it was Madison who HATED the idea that States all have the same number of representatives, he said it would lead to the most absurd minority having imbalanced rule over the majority. Here we are living that out, and the Supreme Court is doing f*ck-all aside from advancing more favorable conditions for the corporate elite.

But...so precious little of it is even subjective.

Not according to our High Priests

Alito and Thomas will be dead in a couple of years, and I certainly wasn't promoting originalism. It's very clearly a living document, and we're literally living under it. You're very much free to disagree that it should form the core of national identity, but it's objectively the core of national existence, the oldest existing charter of national government, and a boon of incredible proportions for individual liberty. Nobody is claiming that the rights applied equally at its inception, but the framework itself allows for that possibility and we've gradually worked our way towards it through the post-Civil War Second Founding, Progressive Era, and Civil Rights Movement. It's not that dire, brother.

Personally I prefer the tone of the Declaration of Independence. Any document that had to be amended to consider black people human beings is tainted IMO, and also, as stated earlier in the thread, the Framers had the express intent of preserving the power of wealthy landowners. Now, Presidents can do more than we think to curtail the power the SCOTUS took for itself with the concept of judicial review, but in this hot political climate they risk atomic-bombing their career doing so, outwardly undermining an institution at a time when institutional faith is already fragile.

That said I do appreciate your input here. And the more productive tone of the conversations with those I generally am stringent disagreement with.

It's always cordial if not productive. I have a pretty robust sense of patriotism for a lot of different reasons, some of them probably subconscious. But I accept that not everyone shares my enthusiasm (and might even scoff at it). I understand why -- or at the least, I'm willing to hear it out. I wish nothing but the best for you and yours, bruv. We came damn close to running into each other at the Vegas convention center a couple weeks ago. Wtf was up with the wind that weekend? A bunch of outdoor concerts and events got canceled.

 

[Loiosh]

I have not, although I think there was a fairly productive convo with Sinister earlier in the thread if you want to read. I'm kind of staying silent because I have a similar sort of thread in mind for July aside from the charged Trump/MAGA element.

We need more exchanges like this one.

 

[Andy Capp]

This is ungodly rare. I live in the bluest area of Indiana (and even then it's still just purple). Biden and Trump flags in front of so many houses. Let me ask you this... take a guess how many Biden flags had an American flag on/next/near it.... ZERO. So what does that tell you have liberals.

It tells me they don't drape themselves in the flag and label every political disagreement as unpatriotic. But guess who does?

 

[Andy Capp]

Yes. What are you disputing?

I don't know that more people are depending on food banks. Real wages are higher up and down the distribution and the safety net has gotten stronger over time.

I'm not disputing anything and I thought I made that clear at the outset--apparently I wasn't clear at all.

What I'm saying is I don't recall seeing you post any data to support your claims and I think it would be helpful to the discussion. Nothing more, really.

 

[Andy Capp]

@Jack V Savage the mojo has gone to work for us yet again and produced results.

On CBC Radio right now there's an expert economist talking about inflation, wages, etc., and how the Bank of Canada fucked up during the pandemic compared with the US. He happened to mention wage growth in the US is at 6%.

He makes the case that if we're not going to farm out production to low wage economies anymore--which he presents as a fait accompli--then 2% is no longer a realistic inflation target.

So prices will rise but the middle class will benefit by higher wages in areas like factory work. Overall he thought it was good news for workers in the long run.

 

[Deorum]

We need more exchanges like this one.

I have no idea how you view him or through what sort of historical lens (if any), but I often imagine how fucking awesome it would be to get a reincarnated Teddy Roosevelt for the 21st century. I've only ever been awestruck by a paltry three presidents in American history, dudes whose undeniable greatness actually gives me goosebumps albeit for different reasons.

TR cannot rank above the father of the country nor the man who ultimately sacrificed his life to save it, but he's a clear third for me. Granted, the modern GOP would be more outraged by his final form Bull policies than the South was when he invited Booker T. Washington to the White House for dinner, but they would respect him -- certainly ordinary conservative citizens would.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm not disputing anything and I thought I made that clear at the outset--apparently I wasn't clear at all.

What I'm saying is I don't recall seeing you post any data to support your claims and I think it would be helpful to the discussion. Nothing more, really.

There are a lot, and it's been done. What I recommend generally is thinking of a metric that might be useful and just searching for it plus FRED. One striking one is that median family income in the U.S. in 2022 dollars was around $93K that year (official 2023 numbers aren't available yet, but it looks like a big jump from 2022). It was $38K when that metric was first tracked in 1953. And of course family sizes are smaller now. Basically all relevant metrics show the same pattern.

There's no legitimate dispute about that. What some charlatans will do is pick a particular price out of the bunch and say that that item has gotten more relatively expensive (for example, food and clothing costs are way down but healthcare costs are up). First, that's a poor way to go about it. If your total bill is lower, it doesn't matter if particular lines on it are higher. And second, that generally fails to take into account quality changes (which is why long-term inflation measures always overstate it--a person with an income of $X today is going to be much better off than a person with an income of $X adjusted for inflation 40 years ago). For example, healthcare costs a lot more now than it did in 1960, but you're getting much more for it. And because we're a richer country, our average needs change. For example, during WWII, a really large percentage of draftees and recruits suffered from the effects of malnutrition. Today, we're more concerned about obesity.

 

[Loiosh]

I have no idea how you view him or through what sort of historical lens (if any), but I often imagine how fucking awesome it would be to get a reincarnated Teddy Roosevelt for the 21st century. I've only ever been awestruck by a paltry three presidents in American history, dudes whose undeniable greatness actually gives me goosebumps albeit for different reasons.

TR cannot rank above the father of the country nor the man who ultimately sacrificed his life to save it, but he's a clear third for me. Granted, the modern GOP would be more outraged by his final form Bull policies than the South was when he invited Booker T. Washington to the White House for dinner, but they would respect him -- certainly ordinary conservative citizens would.

Teddy was a deeply flawed man of his times who was also a magnificent force of nature who changed the country. Nothing but love for the bulletproof bear.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I haven't read most of this thread, but have you spoken to what "making America great again" means to you?

Putting politics aside I can envision an approach that would be good for everyone, but obviously Trump isn't the man for that job.

I think a major issue is that rightist intellectuals believe that the culture and democracy is unfairly stacked against them and so they have to kind of go underground with their views. You guys were discussing TR recently. A lot of rightists think that business regs (that he largely introduced) are inherently illegitimate. But they also see that as a losing argument so they try to make the case that regs will have counterproductive effects or that they're corrupt, or that OK, it's a good idea but we need many years of additional research, etc.

Or a lot of rightists like a certain fake Ben Franklin quote (used by RDS in his first book, for example): “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." The belief is that The Constitution is supposed to prevent things like SNAP or progressive taxation. But again, the whole point of the fake quote is that you can't tell the truth about that view because rich people are outnumbered. So they pretend that regressive tax cuts are actually self-financing with huge growth effects.

So we have a situation where everyone says they want roughly similar things--low unemployment, high real wages, low poverty, a clean environment, etc. And it appears superficially that there are just differences in how best to achieve those goals. But in reality, the goals are different, and the right is just lying.

And since American conservatism was created by merging anti-New Deal rightists (the people referred to above) with pro-segregation Southerners, there's another set of those types of things, which adds another layer of complexity to the whole thing. That's where you get this belief that, for example, immigration lowers wages and increases crime, but evil liberals support it anyway because of the votes and business rightists support it because of the "cheap labor." The aims of the two major rightist factions are kind of in tension, but it gets resolved somewhat with the "woke capital" boogeyman, allowing an imaginary common enemy to unite them.

 

[Loiosh]

I think a major issue is that rightist intellectuals believe that the culture and democracy is unfairly stacked against them and so they have to kind of go underground with their views. You guys were discussing TR recently. A lot of rightists think that business regs (that he largely introduced) are inherently illegitimate. But they also see that as a losing argument so they try to make the case that regs will have counterproductive effects or that they're corrupt, or that OK, it's a good idea but we need many years of additional research, etc.

Or a lot of rightists like a certain fake Ben Franklin quote (used by RDS in his first book, for example): “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." The belief is that The Constitution is supposed to prevent things like SNAP or progressive taxation. But again, the whole point of the fake quote is that you can't tell the truth about that view because rich people are outnumbered. So they pretend that regressive tax cuts are actually self-financing with huge growth effects.

So we have a situation where everyone says they want roughly similar things--low unemployment, high real wages, low poverty, a clean environment, etc. And it appears superficially that there are just differences in how best to achieve those goals. But in reality, the goals are different, and the right is just lying.

And since American conservatism was created by merging anti-New Deal rightists (the people referred to above) with pro-segregation Southerners, there's another set of those types of things, which adds another layer of complexity to the whole thing. That's where you get this belief that, for example, immigration lowers wages and increases crime, but evil liberals support it anyway because of the votes and business rightists support it because of the "cheap labor." The aims of the two major rightist factions are kind of in tension, but it gets resolved somewhat with the "woke capital" boogeyman, allowing an imaginary common enemy to unite them.

Man, is this thread delivering. Hell of a post.

 

[NoSmilez]

We need to stop feeding into this culture war bullshit. I used to believe people are similar outside of a few major things like abortions. Everyone has gone full sports team recently and it's unbearable.

 

[Deorum]

Teddy was a deeply flawed man of his times who was also a magnificent force of nature who changed the country. Nothing but love for the bulletproof bear.

He was a sickly child born into silver spooned privilege. He turned himself into a self-sufficient outdoorsman through force of will and a champion for public welfare through good conscience. He's the greatest conservationist the world has ever known, in large part because he was POTUS and extremely adept at wielding the power and influence of the office.

 

[Loiosh]

He's the greatest conservationist the world has ever known

I didn't know this, looks like I have some reading ahead of me.

 

[Deorum]

I didn't know this, looks like I have some reading ahead of me.

Theodore Roosevelt and Conservation - Theodore Roosevelt National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children’s children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”

 

[Jack V Savage]

I didn't know this, looks like I have some reading ahead of me.

That's why he's on Mt. Rushmore. Washington, Jefferson, TR, and Lincoln symbolize, respectively, birth, growth, conservation/development, and preservation.

Personally, I'm not as a big a TR fan. Imperialist and authoritarian. Some of his rep is good PR. But he was certainly a significant president who did some good things.

 

[Loiosh]

Theodore Roosevelt and Conservation - Theodore Roosevelt National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children’s children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”

Whoah.