Opinion What does "Make America Great Again" mean to you? And how do you see it being great again?

[Rational Poster]

I think of Independence Hall, Bill of Rights, National Parks, North Dakota (family farm), and Rodeo. But point taken. It was pretty sad seeing so many people gang up on @Rational Poster and hate on NYC the other day along partisan political lines and talk about how it isn't worth shit despite the fact that - aside from being the financial capital of the world - it arguably holds a lion's share of America's best man-made attractions, landmarks, cultural institutions, and culinary diversity.



It's always cordial if not productive. I have a pretty robust sense of patriotism for a lot of different reasons, some of them probably subconscious. But I accept that not everyone shares my enthusiasm (and might even scoff at it). I understand why -- or at the least, I'm willing to hear it out. I wish nothing but the best for you and yours, bruv. We came damn close to running into each other at the Vegas convention center a couple weeks ago. Wtf was up with the wind that weekend? A bunch of outdoor concerts and events got canceled.

It seems to me that a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum are being absolutely mind fucked by foreign internet propagandists and just cannot handle it.

There is a very strong effort from foreign actors to promote anti-Americanism in both the populist right and progressive left.

American politicians seem to be waking up to this fact, ie TikTok, but obviously that's just one fragment of the issue. The propaganda is pervasive throughout all social media and even gaming communities and smaller web forums like this.

It's very deliberate and targeted, and a lot of the people are so consumed by it they'll be offended by the very suggestion even when we have incredibly strong evidence of these foreign influence campaigns and who is doing it.

 

[nostradumbass]

I never said you have to pay 6 figures to unskilled labor. You have a very large part of the population working at or close to minimum wage, a lot of them even depending on tips to make minimum wage. These people cant afford their own apartment in the majority of the US. That is a major problem.
You want manufacturing to come back to the US but at the same time want the companies to pay 3rd world wages leading to the government subsidizing companies with billions in profits.
If you cant pay your workers a livable wage maybe your company shouldnt exist

What does "shouldn't exist" even mean? Who do you think should shut down every business that employs cashiers, and how do you see that effecting the "very large part of population" with no degree or work experience if the only jobs you think should exist are jobs that require a degree or work experience?

Luckily you're wrong, it isn't "a very large part of the population". If you're talking about the federal MW, that's like 1.3% of workers, and most of those are tipped or commission jobs that make well above that with their tips or commission, and the ones that are left are students, dependents and part time workers. It's also not manufacturing jobs because obviously nobody would take any manufacturing jobs if they could get paid the same to sit behind a counter.

Why the eff would they be able to "afford their own apartment"? There are like 144 million housing units in the country and 340 million people. Yeah, let's lower marriage rates and encourage people to stay single for like a decade longer, then have every teenager with their first part time job buying their own place instead of having roommates so we have more home buyers than homes in existence. Yeah, that'll lower housing costs.

 

[Prutfis]

What does "shouldn't exist" even mean? Who do you think should shut down every business that employs cashiers, and how do you see that effecting the "very large part of population" with no degree or work experience if the only jobs you think should exist are jobs that require a degree or work experience?

Luckily you're wrong, it isn't "a very large part of the population". If you're talking about the federal MW, that's like 1.3% of workers, and most of those are tipped or commission jobs that make well above that with their tips or commission, and the ones that are left are students, dependents and part time workers. It's also not manufacturing jobs because obviously nobody would take any manufacturing jobs if they could get paid the same to sit behind a counter.

Why the eff would they be able to "afford their own apartment"? There are like 144 million housing units in the country and 340 million people. Yeah, let's lower marriage rates and encourage people to stay single for like a decade longer, then have every teenager with their first part time job buying their own place instead of having roommates so we have more home buyers than homes in existence. Yeah, that'll lower housing costs.

32 percent of American households make less than 50k a year. If you go 75k its 50 percent in a country where the recommended average for normal living is 70k. Thats pretty alarming.
But let me get this straight. You dont think that someone working a full time job should be able to afford their own place to live?
I think the only full time jobs that should exist are the ones that pay at least a livable wage. Sorry that you live in a shithole where that isnt the case.
Hell a full time mcdonalds worker here is better of than 30 percent of the us. They also have 6 weeks paid vacation, 9 months maternity leave and better healthcare.
And thats the thing about the oh so high us median wage. When you deduct the average cost of healthcare it goes below top 30 lol
Hell according to your logic we should allow slavery again since the wages of the little guy is clearly the largest influence on prices. Its not like that money would be used for stock buybacks or CEOs making hundreds of millions pr year.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Personally, I think the intent is to put on a big pair of rose colored glasses and look back at the 50s before the civil rights unrest and rapidly changing society. People began to prosper in the 50s, which was a big deal after the first fifty years of the century containing two world wars and a Great Depression.

Families were strong. Economic development was strong. Technology was growing. Life was improving.

However, if you hate the man that coined the slogan-and I do, you hate the slogan. Harkening back to the 50s is like saying the civil rights movement of the 60s was a mistake (i am not saying it is, I am saying that the detractors of this slogan believe that) and things have gone down hill since then, and I do believe that to be true. Every decade seems to get a little worse. We’ve never been so advanced as we are right now-yet, we have never been so far from prosperity for so many. The middle class is stagnated, the lower glass is growing while the rich are getting richer-and that’s not how it should be. It seemed like in the 50s, more people were getting a slice of pie while now, more seems to just get some crumbs of those at the top having their seconds.

People are richer up and down the distribution now than ever before, though. Productivity and population growth have slowed in recent decades, which could have an impact on expectations (I could see it theoretically, and a lot of people seem to think it's happened, though it's hard to measure). There's also a relentless negativity bias in the media (not just the mainstream--it's actually worse with speciality/partisan outlets).

 

[freakroor]

End the drug war. re-instate our 4th amendment rights . Stop filling the prisons with drug war prisoners. Let consenting adults do wtf they want.

USA can't claim it is great or free when it has the world's largest prison population by far.

 

[Sinister]

32 percent of American households make less than 50k a year. If you go 75k its 50 percent in a country where the recommended average for normal living is 70k. Thats pretty alarming.
But let me get this straight. You dont think that someone working a full time job should be able to afford their own place to live?
I think the only full time jobs that should exist are the ones that pay at least a livable wage. Sorry that you live in a shithole where that isnt the case.
Hell a full time mcdonalds worker here is better of than 30 percent of the us. They also have 6 weeks paid vacation, 9 months maternity leave and better healthcare.
And thats the thing about the oh so high us median wage. When you deduct the average cost of healthcare it goes below top 30 lol
Hell according to your logic we should allow slavery again since the wages of the little guy is clearly the largest influence on prices. Its not like that money would be used for stock buybacks or CEOs making hundreds of millions pr year.

They honestly believe that there are tiers even to fill time workers. They call it "skilled" vs "unskilled." Adapted from capitalists who wanted to socially justify preserving economic heirarchies that align with social ones. This allows people to favor specific demographics or political positions without sounding like bigots, but merely classists, because they can entirely blame the worker for being lazy (not pursuing "better" jobs or higher education). So the answer is yes, they believe there are full time workers who dont deserve living wages, who should be subject to the whims of those above them, and any aversion to this is just envy of those better than they are while they're unwilling to simply choose to be so themselves.

 

[nostradumbass]

32 percent of American households make less than 50k a year. If you go 75k its 50 percent in a country where the recommended average for normal living is 70k. Thats pretty alarming.
But let me get this straight. You dont think that someone working a full time job should be able to afford their own place to live?
I think the only full time jobs that should exist are the ones that pay at least a livable wage. Sorry that you live in a shithole where that isnt the case.
Hell a full time mcdonalds worker here is better of than 30 percent of the us. They also have 6 weeks paid vacation, 9 months maternity leave and better healthcare.
And thats the thing about the oh so high us median wage. When you deduct the average cost of healthcare it goes below top 30 lol
Hell according to your logic we should allow slavery again since the wages of the little guy is clearly the largest influence on prices. Its not like that money would be used for stock buybacks or CEOs making hundreds of millions pr year.

No, there are plenty of people with full time jobs who can afford their own place to live. In fact, the vast vast majority of them can, while kids working minimum wage jobs probably cannot and would need a roommate until they start making more.

You're mixing up different things and just flat out incorrect about others. I don't know what you mean by "recommended average for normal living", but if that is the average that a family spends with a couple kids, a house, 2 cars, crap for the kids and living expenses etc, and the median income is several thousand more than that, sounds like a good sign. Don't know what that has to do with minimum wage, unless you're suggesting that a gas station cashier should live in a 3 bedroom house and have 2 cars.

You're also very confused about "healthcare". You don't get to "deduct" something the employee doesn't even pay, so you can either first add the employer's share as part of the compensation, or more efficiently would be to just deduct what the employee pays, which is pretty small.

You're also confusing part time work with full time work. You made claims in your previous post that apply only to part time workers, like "the government subsidizing wages", and then use it as a discussion of full time work. The large majority of minimum wage jobs are either part time or tipped jobs.


And again, it's not really your call anyway, but it's pretty dickish to declare that if you don't have enough skills for a job worth $70k, then you shouldn't be allowed to have a job at all. There clearly aren't any small buinesses that make enough to pay cashiers $70k, and Walmart's payroll would be over $161 billion which is more than they've ever made in any year, so those are out too, and there goes every grocery store and about 98% of restaurants and basically every business that ever had mimimum wage jobs.


Here is the list of median and mean income by country. If you're in a country where it's higher than the US, that pretty much narrows it down to Luxembourg or UAE, and even those are barely ahead.

Median Income by Country 2024

 

[Darkballs]

It's a shitty slogan you yell out when you don't have any actual policies.

 

[gatchaman]

Reject Constitution.
Embrace Articles of Confederation.
Scratch that; embrace Declaration of Independence.

 

[IDGETKTFO]

Getting rid of illegal aliens, roe vs wade, men competing in womens sports...I could go on. All things that i would have never voted for Biden if i had the ability to see hindsight. I wont make that mistake again.

 

[My Spot]

Reject Constitution.
Embrace Articles of Confederation.
Scratch that; embrace Declaration of Independence.

Abortion for some, miniature American flags for others.

 

[Takes_Two_To_Tango]

Are people really this unaware of the country's history? TS thinks all we've contributed is movies and music?
How about we bring back manufacturing EVERYTHING that we gave to China and no longer produce on our own. We ship meat into the country from overseas, FFS. Our farmlands are disappearing.
If manufacturing isn't enough, how about we stop out exploitation of literally every person we could consider a minority? How about we have some expectation for our communities?
How could anyone look around this country and say straight faced that we've gone in the right direction?

I never said it's only pop culture you guys contributed. You guys have strongest military in the world. The most advanced tech companies. You guys produce the most popular brands out there generally. So of course more than just pop culture, I was just using that as a small example.

Just start off a conversation.

 

[Cajun]

1. Returning to production at home rather than abroad.
2. Resurgence of the Middle Class
3. Relatively unified vision of the nation
4. Resurgence of pride in the nation

Now, do I think Trump would be the one to institute all these...no. But the question was about our ideas of "Make America Great Again".

Good answer imo.

 

[Prutfis]

No, there are plenty of people with full time jobs who can afford their own place to live. In fact, the vast vast majority of them can, while kids working minimum wage jobs probably cannot and would need a roommate until they start making more.

You're mixing up different things and just flat out incorrect about others. I don't know what you mean by "recommended average for normal living", but if that is the average that a family spends with a couple kids, a house, 2 cars, crap for the kids and living expenses etc, and the median income is several thousand more than that, sounds like a good sign. Don't know what that has to do with minimum wage, unless you're suggesting that a gas station cashier should live in a 3 bedroom house and have 2 cars.

You're also very confused about "healthcare". You don't get to "deduct" something the employee doesn't even pay, so you can either first add the employer's share as part of the compensation, or more efficiently would be to just deduct what the employee pays, which is pretty small.

You're also confusing part time work with full time work. You made claims in your previous post that apply only to part time workers, like "the government subsidizing wages", and then use it as a discussion of full time work. The large majority of minimum wage jobs are either part time or tipped jobs.


And again, it's not really your call anyway, but it's pretty dickish to declare that if you don't have enough skills for a job worth $70k, then you shouldn't be allowed to have a job at all. There clearly aren't any small buinesses that make enough to pay cashiers $70k, and Walmart's payroll would be over $161 billion which is more than they've ever made in any year, so those are out too, and there goes every grocery store and about 98% of restaurants and basically every business that ever had mimimum wage jobs.


Here is the list of median and mean income by country. If you're in a country where it's higher than the US, that pretty much narrows it down to Luxembourg or UAE, and even those are barely ahead.

Median Income by Country 2024

Almost 9 percent of full time workers make less than 15k a year. Do you consider that a decent wage for full time work? 28 percent of households and 35 percent of persons making 25k or less. Thats almost 3rd world wages.

I deducted average annual healthcare cost from average annual wage. Pretty simple math.

I think someone working full time should be able to at least afford a 1 bedroom and basic necessities.
I also never said anything about people not making 70k shouldnt have a job. Your reading comprehension failed on that one. 70k is listed as the average household income for decent living. That would be 35k for each adult.
I said if you cant pay your workers a livable wage for full time work maybe your business shouldnt exist. Livable wage for a single person can vary by quite a bit with location. But 15k sure as hell aint it.
But i guess when you talk about bringing manufacturing back to the us that includes the wage levels of the countries you bring it back from.

 

[ferrisjso]

It seems to me that a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum are being absolutely mind fucked by foreign internet propagandists and just cannot handle it.

There is a very strong effort from foreign actors to promote anti-Americanism in both the populist right and progressive left.

American politicians seem to be waking up to this fact, ie TikTok, but obviously that's just one fragment of the issue. The propaganda is pervasive throughout all social media and even gaming communities and smaller web forums like this.

It's very deliberate and targeted, and a lot of the people are so consumed by it they'll be offended by the very suggestion even when we have incredibly strong evidence of these foreign influence campaigns and who is doing it.

If the left(or right for that matter)overthrew the govt you realize the shoe would be on the other foot here and they would be accusing you of hating America within 10 years or so right? This logic assumes that there is an obligation to support your governments policies and if someone doesn't support their government they are doing something wrong and its because of some nefarious trickster. Anti Americanism is based on hating the countrys governments and the governments values not the people. The main reason people in America hate America is because of the way the govt treats its people. Foreign propaganda taking advantage of that doesn't mean its not true. The best propaganda has always been truthful propaganda.

This shit is basically the CIA projecting what they do on to everyone else.

 

[nostradumbass]

Almost 9 percent of full time workers make less than 15k a year. Do you consider that a decent wage for full time work? 28 percent of households and 35 percent of persons making 25k or less. Thats almost 3rd world wages.

I deducted average annual healthcare cost from average annual wage. Pretty simple math.

I think someone working full time should be able to at least afford a 1 bedroom and basic necessities.
I also never said anything about people not making 70k shouldnt have a job. Your reading comprehension failed on that one. 70k is listed as the average household income for decent living. That would be 35k for each adult.
I said if you cant pay your workers a livable wage for full time work maybe your business shouldnt exist. Livable wage for a single person can vary by quite a bit with location. But 15k sure as hell aint it.
But i guess when you talk about bringing manufacturing back to the us that includes the wage levels of the countries you bring it back from.

1. No, they don't. The numbers I'm assuming you're looking at aren't full time workers, it would probably be the 8.3% figure of adults who have that as income, which are people who do not work full time and collect welfare. Might be people with part time jobs who get welfare benefits too, but I think even they are over $15k.

2. Yeah, you didn't even double dip, you deducted in the wrong direction from the person who isn't spending it instead of adding to the person who is. If I pay $7k for your medical insurance, and also pay you a $50k salary, that isn't you making $43k, that is you making $$50k and costing me $57k. You would ADD that to the salary as part of compensation, not subtract it.

3. You're not sourcing anything, so I don't know what you're referencing with these claims. Yes, if you're demanding more money than the job is worth or even more than the business makes, then you ARE saying that they shouldn't have a job because nearly every place that employs them doesn't even make enough to pay them what you're demanding, even if they were operating as charities, and you haven't really been specific or given a number for how much you think they should make.

4. Yes, it's the simple math you thought you were doing before. It is wages plus the cost to import. If I could hire 3 people here to make something who demand $90k each, or I could have 3 guys in Bangladesh do it for $45k each plus $110k to import the products, then my total for everything is less than just what you're demanding. But if the 3 guys here do it for $75k, it is cheaper and easier to have it made here, but you say if I stay here they can't even take the job for $75k, so I just go elsewhere.

 

[blackheart]

1. Returning to production at home rather than abroad.
2. Resurgence of the Middle Class
3. Relatively unified vision of the nation
4. Resurgence of pride in the nation

Now, do I think Trump would be the one to institute all these...no. But the question was about our ideas of "Make America Great Again".

Curious - how do you possibly hope to achieve #1? These mega corporations are just going to agree to dramatically increase their costs and spend billions more on American labor?

 

[Sinister]

Curious - how do you possibly hope to achieve #1? These mega corporations are just going to agree to dramatically increase their costs and spend billions more on American labor?

Well the answer is obvious. Disempower unions and make Americans wage-slaves again. Southern States are already doing this with unconstitutional anti-Union laws, and nearly zero corporate taxation, because the corporatists pushing for this sh*t believe the SCOTUS will uphold them.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Curious - how do you possibly hope to achieve #1? These mega corporations are just going to agree to dramatically increase their costs and spend billions more on American labor?

I don’t even want to bring production home. I want it to be brought to Mexico. We need a far better partnership with Mexico.

If I was president, Day 1 I’m declaring cartels as terrorist organizations, sending in SOF and Drones into Mexico to destroy targets and infrastructure and pushing the Mexican government to disassociate with the cartels.

In return I’d bring so many jobs to Mexico that are in China by lowering trade restrictions with them and increasing them with China. In return Mexico stops the cartels, drug and migrant flows.

 

[Teppodama]

I

Curious - how do you possibly hope to achieve #1? These mega corporations are just going to agree to dramatically increase their costs and spend billions more on American labor?

Don't have a specific answer to that but I do believe it's possible to achieve. If ones doesn't you might as well hand over all power to the mega corps.