Opinion What does "Make America Great Again" mean to you? And how do you see it being great again?

[Rob Battisti]

That's another part of what kind of makes us awesome. Yeah, sure, we're a melting pot. We'll accept that role. But we're also the longest running representative democracy on the planet.

And both of those things constitute our national identity. I don’t understand how people don’t get this.

 

[MLarson]

1$ McDouble

And supersize fries fried in beef tallow.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I kind of think he has to be one of those "disagree just for the fuck of it" types. I find it hard to believe we've lost so much that people no longer remember it.

Or that we have a person who is legitimately asking for a published research paper on a time when people had a collected sense of national identity. It’s wild.

 

[badascan]

Yeah that's essentially political and fiscal conservatism, dashed with a touch of slightly co contradictory libertarianism. Contradictory because you tie in the idea of freedom with the idea of a heavy-handed police State.

I'm not seeing much of an actual "National identity" as opposed to the idea that you want everyone to agree with the basic tenets of the preferred political viewpoint.

To simplify, our identity would be agreeing on being civil and having less federal governance. Our identity comes from our choices and beliefs not some innate quality or made up fantasies... We agree on the fact we are a nation who demands to be secure within our borders and we will not compromise our liberty. Our identity comes from the fact we accept the responsibility of taking care of ourselves and accept all that comes with that. And with that the expectation of being dealt with by society when we refuse to be civil... No police state, self respect...

 

[Sinister]

The core of national existence and identity should be defined by the Constitution as amended. It's not only the world's longest surviving charter of national government but a historic enlightenment document for individual liberty. It's something every American shares lineage to by way of mere citizenship, whether inborn or naturalized. The country collectively possesses a surplus of natural resources, national treasures, world-class cultural institutions, and industries of incredible achievement that every citizen can take pride in.

I cannot agree with this in a Country where we have an unelected entity doing "constitutional interpretation" while having wealthy sugar daddies, and everyone just kinda shrugs their shoulders that there seems to be no way to protect against it. Constitutional originalism is one of the most absurd modern contentions I've ever heard, and it flies in the face of what the Founders themselves wrote about their intentions with the constitution. I believe it was Madison who HATED the idea that States all have the same number of representatives, he said it would lead to the most absurd minority having imbalanced rule over the majority. Here we are living that out, and the Supreme Court is doing f*ck-all aside from advancing more favorable conditions for the corporate elite.

 

[Sinister]

Or that we have a person who is legitimately asking for a published research paper on a time when people had a collected sense of national identity. It’s wild.

Another question of curiosity, when was this period you think we had a collected sense of "National identity"...?

There's a reason I'm asking these questions.

 

[avenue94]

You don't think just being "American" is a national identity?

That's sort of the thing with us. Yeah, we can all trace our roots back somewhere else, but we all ended up here. The best country on God's green earth.

I think there is an overarching American identity that has developed over the past couple of centuries, but it's frequently contradictory and not shared by the entire country. There's never been that kind of identity really, the country has always been too diverse and regionalized for it.

I think it's more accurate to say there are several conceptions of what it means to be "American" and what those "American values" are, and you'll see pretty clear differences based on region.

TLDR: See something along Colin Woodard's work in American Nations.

 

[avenue94]

That's another part of what kind of makes us awesome. Yeah, sure, we're a melting pot. We'll accept that role. But we're also the longest running representative democracy on the planet.

At what point did the US become a representative democracy? The country was effectively a proto-democracy until very recently. America is a very impressive country, and I'd argue impressive enough that we don't need to resort to Schoolhouse Rock mythmaking and can acknowledge past failures and how we have improved on them.

 

[avenue94]

Or that we have a person who is legitimately asking for a published research paper on a time when people had a collected sense of national identity. It’s wild.

Do you not think that scholars don't spend a lot of time studying this or that it's just not important and you'd rather rely on your less masterful command of American history?

Another question of curiosity, when was this period you think we had a collected sense of "National identity"...?

There's a reason I'm asking these questions.

I'd guess the two most common responses to that question I've asked too is early mid 1800s at the height of Jacksonian democracy or immediately after WWII. It's just comical the amount of people claiming America has always had a shared common national identity that everyone agreed on when the majority of colonists were indifferent or outright opposed to the Revolutionary War.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

At what point did the US become a representative democracy? The country was effectively a proto-democracy until very recently. America is a very impressive country, and I'd argue impressive enough that we don't need to resort to Schoolhouse Rock mythmaking and can acknowledge past failures and how we have improved on them.

When has the us ever been a proto-democracy?

 

[My Spot]

It's just a generic campaign slogan. Don't work yourself into a shoot like so many Shertifa posters have over the years.

 

[Sinister]

Do you not think that scholars don't spend a lot of time studying this or that it's just not important and you'd rather rely on your less masterful command of American history?

I'd guess the two most common responses to that question I've asked too is early mid 1800s at the height of Jacksonian democracy or immediately after WWII. It's just comical the amount of people claiming America has always had a shared common national identity that everyone agreed on when the majority of colonists were indifferent or outright opposed to the Revolutionary War.

When there was over racial discrimination in every institution, legal segregation, Natives were still being forcibly removed from their homelands.

Sounds like a harmonious period of egalitarianism under a common identity.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

MAGA is a political catch phrase that suggests peoples lives aren't great and will be better if you elect XYZ. Preys on the idea that one's past years were better and future is bleak.

I prefer Keep America The Most Powerful Nation On Earth but doesn't have the same ring

 

[Kassitus]

One thing I would add which might seem a bit ironic is a reduction of neo-imperialism. Americans seem pretty sick of going to die in a desert on the other side of the world.

 

[Deorum]

I cannot agree with this

But...so precious little of it is even subjective.

 

[avenue94]

When has the us ever been a proto-democracy?

During the many decades where the majority of adults didn't have the franchise? Past that, it depends on how one defines democracy since there are many qualitative and quantitative measures of it.

When there was over racial discrimination in every institution, legal segregation, Natives were still being forcibly removed from their homelands.

Sounds like a harmonious period of egalitarianism under a common identity.

Yeah pretty much. I'd argue the US identity was primarily a "resistance identity" for a lot of time (similar to what you see with many other national liberation movements), and then it involved into some shared values. But also plenty of contradictory and controversial values that led to a constantly moving target.

Apropos to the thread, I think one of the hallmarks of American identity is its malleability and ability to correct for past exclusions.

 

[Sinister]

But...so precious little of it is even subjective.

Not according to our High Priests

 

[ferrisjso]

it is a weird flex to argue that Marx didnt understand such a basic concept of capitalism, that almost always results from capitalism. And to bolster that claim by suggesting it would be incomprehensible because its in a modern context, as a means to minimize the input of a Historical figure. By that rationale it's easy to engage in the dismissal of Historical lessons and contexts in the same sense the fascists do. "Eh, old guys are old. What do they know?"

I dont think you're exactly right about the Founding Fathers, they were actively pursuing the preservation of economic hierarchy. The entire purpose of the Federal system, and the Constitution, was to oversee and largely restrain democratic engagement, because the landowners didnt want to be voted out of their wealth, or in the case of the Southern colonies, their slaves (which bolstered their wealth.) Left to their own devices the States would have been far more progressive-populist had the system of "checks and balances" not been installed. This wasnt an entirely terrible idea because it could be argued that these measures prevent States from must choosing to be slave States again, or denying voting rights to minorities (albeit they still do in other ways). Since then expansion and retraction of democracy has happened, and more and more right wing wealthy elites have grown fearful. In reaction to that, they targeted institutional reform to suit their purposes. Hence the Heritage Foundation goons you've encountered.

That said, I agree with the last paragraph. I just dont think systemic collapse is a good thing, and I dont think there is ANY entity in this Country who can overtake the wheel of the ship and correct-course. MAGA will drive it headlong into the proverbial iceberg, laughing all the way and killing/jailing dissidents. There is no Leftist organization even capable of assuming leadership, and any willing to try are likely to be equally insane/authoritarian. I do think something can be made better out of this system, but that takes time, work, strategy, and patience.

In the first paragraph Marxs whole theory is based on history being predictable and the time after him was perhaps the most unpredictable time period ever. When he wrote his stuff absolutley matters.

2nd paragraph never disagreed with. Theres many ways the founders are wrong. Even if I agreed with them(like Marx) the dead should serve the living not the other way around.

In terms of the last paragraph I agree except the last sentence which obviously we disagree on. We're in a very dark situation any leftist momentum has absolutley been demoralized and destroyed the last few years following 2020. Bernie shit on Obama(not a leftist but this isn't the point)constantly for dissembling his army after 2008 and trying to acheive things solely in the Halls of Congress then as a leader he did the exact same fucking thing. We have no organization nothing and every time we get any influence(media figure, politican anything) it gets coopted within months if not weeks. As much as people on sherdog shitting on leftist protesters hurts my soul there is elements of truth to it I think some of thats on the CIA I think theres been an effort to associate the left with weakness and ineptitude but regardless of whose responsible we are where we are.

Electorally people like Jack Savage making the US a one party state where peoples only outlet of legal resistance is supporting fascism has made the rise of the far right probably inevitable. They will clutch their pearls over Trump while being the main force responsible for him. With the left kneecaped into oblivion theres only one direction peoples anger can go and its to the right. People want things to change and that's their only outlet. Its not hard to see how this story ends.

Much of my hope of the future is based on BRICS and the CCP tbh. This will be the Chinese century. While they have not been the best socialists(Asia has a very unique historical experience from Europe that explains that better then you think I had a professor who taught me much about this) they will have the chance to rewrite the global order in the coming decades and move humanity on a more stable friendly path. For all their faults they are our only hope. The US(ideology aside) is on the path the British were a century back. Still important but having to grapple with not being the center of everything and the world order changing. Much how colonial resistance towards the British had the US come and pressure them to give their empire up. My greatest hope is that something similar happens here. A Suez situation of sorts. In the US we have a little bit of main character syndrome and I think we're going to have to drop that at least partially. There was a time the US left could have taken the US and world in a better direction under US hegemony. I do think whatever window we had for that has passed globally we are just seen as the worst.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

During the many decades where the majority of adults didn't have the franchise? Past that, it depends on how one defines democracy since there are many qualitative and quantitative measures of it.

Which decades are you talking about? I'm assuming by 'Thee Franchise' you mean right to vote. But you said, America was pretty much a proto-democracy up until recently. Proto democracies are often seen as basic direct democracy without elected representatives, when has the US ever been that recently?

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

In the first paragraph Marxs whole theory is based on history being predictable and the time after him was perhaps the most unpredictable time period ever. When he wrote his stuff absolutley matters.

2nd paragraph never disagreed with. Theres many ways the founders are wrong. Even if I agreed with them(like Marx) the dead should serve the living not the other way around.

In terms of the last paragraph I agree except the last sentence which obviously we disagree on. We're in a very dark situation any leftist momentum has absolutley been demoralized and destroyed the last few years following 2020. Bernie shit on Obama(not a leftist but this isn't the point)constantly for dissembling his army after 2008 and trying to acheive things solely in the Halls of Congress then as a leader he did the exact same fucking thing. We have no organization nothing and every time we get any influence(media figure, politican anything) it gets coopted within months if not weeks. As much as people on sherdog shitting on leftist protesters hurts my soul there is elements of truth to it I think some of thats on the CIA I think theres been an effort to associate the left with weakness and ineptitude but regardless of whose responsible we are where we are.

Electorally people like Jack Savage making the US a one party state where peoples only outlet of legal resistance is supporting fascism has made the rise of the far right probably inevitable. They will clutch their pearls over Trump while being the main force responsible for him. With the left kneecaped into oblivion theres only one direction peoples anger can go and its to the right. People want things to change and that's their only outlet. Its not hard to see how this story ends.

Much of my hope of the future is based on BRICS and the CCP tbh. This will be the Chinese century. While they have not been the best socialists(Asia has a very unique historical experience from Europe that explains that better then you think I had a professor who taught me much about this) they will have the chance to rewrite the global order in the coming decades and move humanity on a more stable friendly path. For all their faults they are our only hope. The US(ideology aside) is on the path the British were a century back. Still important but having to grapple with not being the center of everything and the world order changing. Much how colonial resistance towards the British had the US come and pressure them to give their empire up. My greatest hope is that something similar happens here. A Suez situation of sorts. In the US we have a little bit of main character syndrome and I think we're going to have to drop that at least partially. There was a time the US left could have taken the US and world in a better direction under US hegemony. I do think whatever window we had for that has passed globally we are just seen as the worst.

Pussy, have the balls the call him out @Jack V Savage