What are some rule sets / ways that could make Submission Grappling Events more entertaining ?

[cheachea]

From a spectator's perspective I mean.

I'm not meaning involving strikes like Combat Jiu Jitsu is doing (It's cool and I like it) but just from a purely grappling side.

ADCC was actually pretty entertaining.


Here's a few ideas :

• You must get a take down / you can't just plop down on the floor
• You get extra money / points for flashy take downs
• Short timed bouts ?
• You must get a submission to end the match ?

What are some ideas you guys can think of that would make it more spectator friendly and less boring for people who are not grappling nerds like us.

 

[rmongler]

Dual-meets where the team that wins is the one with the most pins/submissions. Eg, like quintet.

 

[lechien]

Point system.
Only reward points for positions achieved and not for action.
You score 3 points for a side control/north south for 3 seconds.
2 points for knee in the belly.
4 points for mount, back control, back mount

No points for takedown or sweeps.
Guard pull is legal.

If you want points you have to take down your opponent, and end up in the side control, mount etc...

Same for sweeping... nothing unless or until in a dominant position.

2 yellow card for stalling.
Then dq on the third card which is red.

Of course a submission will end a match.

But I want a mercy rule
If you trail by at least twelve points, you have lost.

 

[Chandler sama]

There are a lot of things, but the number 1 thing(for professional events) is stop booking people that are boring. We all know there are some fighters who try to win by a point of advantage and others that try to finish or at least put on a show. Hire the more exciting fighters and let it be known that putting on a good show is almost as important as winning. As far as rules.

1). Have submission/technique/fight of the night bonuses.

2). Modify the point system to make scoring easier.For example controlling the back with 1 hook is 2pts and both hooks is 4pts. Passing the guard is 1pt, but you don't need to secure anything, just clearly get past their legs(even if they frame on you or turtle). 2pts for takedowns, but 2pts for throws/spectacular takedowns. Normally you'd get 4pts, but even if you can't secure them after a big throw you'll still get 2pt just for throwing them.

3). Get rid of advantages and add fractional points. This will allow attacking to actually help you win a match instead of potentially cause you to lose. You shouldn't be able to win on a fraction though, so if the score is 4 vs 4.5 it will be considered a draw.

4). Draws go to EBI overtime

5). Stricter stalling calls. Whoever has the dominant grip/position has to do something. If you catch them not moving the ref should give them a warning and start a 20 sec clock. After they haven't moved after 20 sec give a fraction of a point to the other player.

6). Give fractional points for pushing someone out of bounds while standing.

7). Max time limit of 10 min I actually think around 7min would be best.

 

[monkey-bb]

Takedowns mandatory. None of that laying down stuff.
Knees/elbow strikes when on the floor to the body. Hold and strike.
Chokes preferred.

 

[ArtemV]

I want to see a rule-set where GNP is available. We rarely see any good ground and pound in MMA, slaps are stupid; it would be really entertaining seeing guys throw everything down, whilst trying to maintain a good base without getting swept.

 

[aunshi189]

Dual-meets where the team that wins is the one with the most pins/submissions. Eg, like quintet.

I find Quintet the most entertaining grappling to watch.

 

[GoodbyeBlueSky82]

From a spectator's perspective I mean.

I'm not meaning involving strikes like Combat Jiu Jitsu is doing (It's cool and I like it) but just from a purely grappling side.

ADCC was actually pretty entertaining.


Here's a few ideas :

• You must get a take down / you can't just plop down on the floor
• You get extra money / points for flashy take downs
• Short timed bouts ?
• You must get a submission to end the match ?

What are some ideas you guys can think of that would make it more spectator friendly and less boring for people who are not grappling nerds like us.

Re: a couple of your ideas:
- Higher reward for takedown and / or penalties for any guard pulling will essentially make it more of a wrestling match on the feet. Not a bad thing, but not necessarily more interesting. Do people really watch college wrestling or find it exciting, other than other wrestlers?
- Shorter time limits would take away a lot of the systematic approach of Gordon Ryan and others, and reward taking some risks to attack submissions more than playing safe, which could be exciting. Depending on point structure, it could reward getting 1 point and stalling though. Its a double edged sword. Even if they can get tedious, the long matches at IBJJF black belt level at least allow enough time to have some progress. I would hate to watch a guard pull, then someone try and pass the guard for 4 minutes, not succeed, then guy on bottom wins by advantage. It practically happens now even with longer matches, but at least its less likely since there is more time to work.

 

[cheachea]

Re: a couple of your ideas:
- Higher reward for takedown and / or penalties for any guard pulling will essentially make it more of a wrestling match on the feet. Not a bad thing, but not necessarily more interesting. Do people really watch college wrestling or find it exciting, other than other wrestlers?
.

The slams and throws in MMA / Grappling / Wrestling are super exciting though.

 

[cheachea]

Do people really watch college wrestling or find it exciting, other than other wrestlers?
.

 

[dimmyfinster]

The slams and throws in MMA / Grappling / Wrestling are super exciting though.

Judo has rules which take away normal takedown defense.

Those who think more takedowns are more exciting should watch old BJJ matches sometime. Back when takedown, pass, mount, choke was the ideal. They are super boring, two people leaning over each other, unable to take each other down.

Takedowns are better for MMA translation, but not necessarily for excitement.

 

[Kforcer]

From a spectator's perspective I mean.

I'm not meaning involving strikes like Combat Jiu Jitsu is doing (It's cool and I like it) but just from a purely grappling side.

ADCC was actually pretty entertaining.


Here's a few ideas :

• You must get a take down / you can't just plop down on the floor
• You get extra money / points for flashy take downs
• Short timed bouts ?
• You must get a submission to end the match ?

What are some ideas you guys can think of that would make it more spectator friendly and less boring for people who are not grappling nerds like us.

Those are good ideas. Really, great ideas.

Quintet's 8-minute Iron Match was a great idea.

 

[Kforcer]

Those who think more takedowns are more exciting should watch old BJJ matches sometime. Back when takedown, pass, mount, choke was the ideal. They are super boring, two people leaning over each other, unable to take each other down.

Its boring when people don't attack off the feet, but simply stall. But if they engage on the feet, then it isn't boring at all. And the most spectacular submissions are arguably standing submission attacks and entries, which are going to be more relevant and more frequent when standing grappling is emphasized.

Japan's Combat Wrestling format was incredibly exciting and one of the keys was the way people attacked from the feet and on the mat and the way both elements of grappling counted heavily.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Its boring when people don't attack off the feet, but simply stall. But if they engage on the feet, then it isn't boring at all. And the most spectacular submissions are arguably standing submission attacks and entries, which are going to be more relevant and more frequent when standing grappling is emphasized.

Japan's Combat Wrestling format was incredibly exciting and one of the keys was the way people attacked from the feet and on the mat and the way both elements of grappling counted heavily.

I remember watching that like 12 years ago, lol! What happened to that format, did it just disappear? It was fantastic.

 

[Kforcer]

I remember watching that like 12 years ago, lol! What happened to that format, did it just disappear? It was fantastic.

Well, I guess for a while it sort of faded, perhaps as the 'kakutogi boom' in Japan faded and a few years ago, a guy who posts on these boards,
Ivaylo Ivanov, took it over with the blessing of Noriaki Kiguchi who used to run it. His format isn't quite the same, it strikes me as very akin to no-gi sambo. Its still very fun, but for me personally, I prefer the old rule-set.

The classic Combat Wrestling format is my all-time favorite grappling rules set.

They had minimal points for positioning (like, 1 point for side mount, mount and back mount) up to 5 points for a major throw, 1 point for a regular takedown where you brought someone down to his butt, 2 points for a "catch", i.e., a submission that was fully sunk in and causing the opponent to focus everything on defending and once in a match, you could score points for a "pin", 1 point for holding an opponent down 10 seconds, 2 points for 20 seconds and 3 points for 30 seconds. They also restarted things on the feet if the action reached a stalemate on the ground or stalled out and called out stalling pretty aggressively.

Definitely the all-time best format, IMO. Inspired people to take action--to pursue throws, takedowns, submissions and pins. The minimal points for positioning meant to me that you couldn't expect to get by just looking to rack up points with guard passing and control. It meant you had to attack, whether it was on the feet or on the ground. And I also liked the fact that it meant grappling wizards like Baret Yoshida and Rumina Sato had to find a way to get Olympic wrestlers like Yasuhito Miyake onto the mat and into their world, as opposed to most contemporary grappling where you're essentially compelled by the rules to meet on the mat and takedowns are all too often largely superfluous.

 

[Kforcer]

Personally, I thought it would be interesting to have a rule-set where ippons, i.e., throwing someone directly onto their back, ended the match as well as 3-count pins on the mat. Throw in sumo-style ring outs as another way to win and of course, submissions. You could also beat an opponent by technical superiority, but otherwise there'd be no points--points would only mean something in as much as they counted towards a tech-fall finish. I think it would be interesting for grapplers from diverse backgrounds to meet in a format where all their methods of victory were on the table, so that competitors were therefore forced to find ways to impose their strengths upon the opponent instead of a rule-set where certain elements of grappling were either prohibited or rendered nearly irrelevant.

 

[yetanother]

Idea from traditional Indian wrestling, spectators hand out cash to exiting competitors after their matches.
Imagine if we had a bunch of Chechen gangsters and some sheiks watching the matches ready to reward cools moves and being offensive there would be a lot less stalling.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Well, I guess for a while it sort of faded, perhaps as the 'kakutogi boom' in Japan faded and a few years ago, a guy who posts on these boards,
Ivaylo Ivanov, took it over with the blessing of Noriaki Kiguchi who used to run it. His format isn't quite the same, it strikes me as very akin to no-gi sambo. Its still very fun, but for me personally, I prefer the old rule-set.

The classic Combat Wrestling format is my all-time favorite grappling rules set.

They had minimal points for positioning (like, 1 point for side mount, mount and back mount) up to 5 points for a major throw, 1 point for a regular takedown where you brought someone down to his butt, 2 points for a "catch", i.e., a submission that was fully sunk in and causing the opponent to focus everything on defending and once in a match, you could score points for a "pin", 1 point for holding an opponent down 10 seconds, 2 points for 20 seconds and 3 points for 30 seconds. They also restarted things on the feet if the action reached a stalemate on the ground or stalled out and called out stalling pretty aggressively.

Definitely the all-time best format, IMO. Inspired people to take action--to pursue throws, takedowns, submissions and pins. The minimal points for positioning meant to me that you couldn't expect to get by just looking to rack up points with guard passing and control. It meant you had to attack, whether it was on the feet or on the ground. And I also liked the fact that it meant grappling wizards like Baret Yoshida and Rumina Sato had to find a way to get Olympic wrestlers like Yasuhito Miyake onto the mat and into their world, as opposed to most contemporary grappling where you're essentially compelled by the rules to meet on the mat and takedowns are all too often largely superfluous.

Yeah it was exciting AF. These guys moved like squirrels and were always, relentlessly attacking. So much different from what we currently see in high level modern grappling.

Just a thought though, could there have been a size factor, i.e. that Japanese fighters being smaller on average than westerners, that it allowed for such a quick style? I mean maybe if a big guy like Craig Jones or Vinny Magalhes was 150 pounds an 1m70 he would fight differently? Just a thought. Kind of like the way Thai fighters fight cannot be replicated by 200 pounds men.

 

[Kforcer]

Yeah it was exciting AF. These guys moved like squirrels and were always, relentlessly attacking. So much different from what we currently see in high level modern grappling.

Just a thought though, could there have been a size factor, i.e. that Japanese fighters being smaller on average than westerners, that it allowed for such a quick style? I mean maybe if a big guy like Craig Jones or Vinny Magalhes was 150 pounds an 1m70 he would fight differently? Just a thought. Kind of like the way Thai fighters fight cannot be replicated by 200 pounds men.

That's an interesting thought--to be fair though, I do think that some of the most exciting guys were actually in the heavier weights in Combat Wrestling. There was a Japanese guy who taught sambo at Kiguchi Dojo would had some beautiful matches in Combat Wrestling and was in one of the heavier weight classes, for example.

I think a lot of it was cultural--I think the prominence of shoot-style professional wrestling, which presented a lofty aesthetic ideal of what grappling should strive to look like had an effect, as well as the theory of "kaitentai" that Masakatsu Funaki and Kiyoshi Tamura both propagated, which meant grappling with an emphasis on dynamic motion and no stale-mate, essentially. But I also think some of it was just a general attitude a lot of Japanese have towards martial arts competition--even in judo, don't you see something a similar attitude, where Japanese competitors aim towards the ippon and to some extent, disdain wins based on small points?

It is true though that certain among the bigger guys, like Izuru Takeuchi, could both be exciting and also the most boring guy in the building during the heyday of Japanese Combat Wrestling, in a way that the littler guys almost never would be.

 

[Kforcer]

Do people really watch college wrestling or find it exciting, other than other wrestlers?

Henry Cejudo versus Nick Simmons for a berth on the Olympic team:


Michael Ironside of Iowa versus Cary Kolat: