What are some rule sets / ways that could make Submission Grappling Events more entertaining ?

[Kforcer]

What is different?

Quality of competitors.

But to be fair, they had guys like Yasuhito Miyake, Olympic silver medalist in Greco-Roman wrestling, Baret Yoshida, one of the all-time grappling legends and then of course, Rumina Sato, Imanari, Caol Uno, Akira Kikuchi, Katsuya Toida, Masakatsu Ueda, Gomi and probably my favorite, the late Takefumi Hanai, who were all world-class grapplers.

But I get you about my wording regarding "classic" and "original." Its the version that I fell in love with though. But fair enough and honestly, I didn't realize that you guys were using the original version of the rules.

 

[rmongler]

he believes that was the original version of it.

It wasnt.

Maybe true, but it is also a trivial truth. The functional point was never 'what do you think the oldest ruleset is', it was 'what do you think the most exciting ruleset is'. To call the ruleset kforcer was talking about 'the oldest ruleset' would be a minsnomer, but also irrelevant to the functional point. One says 'i think this old ruleset was the most exciting', and another says 'actually there is a ruleset even older than that'; but the one even older than that is still not the one that was being referred too, in any case.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

But to be fair, they had guys like Yasuhito Miyake, Olympic silver medalist in Greco-Roman wrestling, Baret Yoshida, one of the all-time grappling legends and then of course, Rumina Sato, Imanari, Caol Uno, Akira Kikuchi, Katsuya Toida, Masakatsu Ueda, Gomi and probably my favorite, the late Takefumi Hanai, who were all world-class grapplers.

But I get you about my wording regarding "classic" and "original." Its the version that I fell in love with though. But fair enough and honestly, I didn't realize that you guys were using the original version of the rules.

They never had Combat Sambo world champs, UWW grappling world champ, BJJ BB, which is also a UFC vet and etc.

Saying that the level back then was higher, means you didnt made the effort to research who is competing in Combat Wrestling now.

Just check who are Steven Ramos, Shutaro Debana, Boris Velichkov, Niko Koliastasis.

I do understand that some people love the "Japanese" aspect of martial arts, but to deny progress is stupid.

Mr. Kiguchi himself was surprised by the level of competitors we currently enjoy.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Maybe true, but it is also a trivial truth. The functional point was never 'what do you think the oldest ruleset is', it was 'what do you think the most exciting ruleset is'. To call the ruleset kforcer was talking about 'the oldest ruleset' would be a minsnomer, but also irrelevant to the functional point. One says 'i think this old ruleset was the most exciting', and another says 'actually there is a ruleset even older than that'; but the one even older than that is still not the one that was being referred too, in any case.

Nah.

He said "original".

It wasnt.

And its not a MAYBE, it is set in stone sure.

You are talking to the right guy here

As for what is exciting, that is very subjective point.
Average BJJ guy finds everything with "wrestling" in it, not very technical, hence, not interesting.

There will always be people who disagree on something.
But to make false claims about something, that I know from the inside out, would be a big mistake.
I will rip you a new one with information.

 

[Kforcer]

They never had Combat Sambo world champs, UWW grappling world champ, BJJ BB, which is also a UFC vet and etc.

Saying that the level back then was higher, means you didnt made the effort to research who is competing in Combat Wrestling now.

Just check who are Steven Ramos, Shutaro Debana, Boris Velichkov, Niko Koliastasis.

I do understand that some people love the "Japanese" aspect of martial arts, but to deny progress is stupid.

Mr. Kiguchi himself was surprised by the level of competitors we currently enjoy.

Did I say that they were necessarily better? You're putting words in my mouth. I said "to be fair", as in, regardless of how high you feel about the level of the current competitors, "to be fair" the level back then was pretty high. An Olympic silver medal is pretty high-level. A Pride GP championship is pretty high level.

 

[rmongler]

Nah.

He said "original".

It wasnt.

Maybe true, but also a trivial truth. The functional point was never 'what do you think the oldest ruleset is', it was 'what do you think the most exciting ruleset is'. To call the ruleset kforcer was talking about 'the oldest ruleset' would be a minsnomer, but also irrelevant to the functional point. One says 'i think this old ruleset was the most exciting', and another says 'actually there is a ruleset even older than that'; but the one even older than that is still not the one that was being referred too, in any case.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Did I say that they were necessarily better? You're putting words in my mouth. I said "to be fair", as in, regardless of how high you feel about the level of the current competitors, "to be fair" the level back then was pretty high. An Olympic silver medal is pretty high-level. A Pride GP championship is pretty high level.

You said you prefer the "original" version, stating rules, used mid 2000.

I pointed out thats not the original rule set.

You pointed you think it was more exciting for you.

I pointed its a subjective point of view, since you didnt put the effort to actually check whats going on in the World events now, been statistically a lot better (and safer).

You said today is more "Sambo".
I answered it has always been and provided information why.

Level now is higher, there is no doubt about that

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Maybe true, but also a trivial truth. The functional point was never 'what do you think the oldest ruleset is', it was 'what do you think the most exciting ruleset is'. To call the ruleset kforcer was talking about 'the oldest ruleset' would be a minsnomer, but also irrelevant to the functional point. One says 'i think this old ruleset was the most exciting', and another says 'actually there is a ruleset even older than that'; but the one even older than that is still not the one that was being referred too, in any case.

He said original, not the old one.

Original is what we use today.

Do you need me to write it in another language, for better understanding?

 

[rmongler]

He said original, not the old one.

Original is what we use today.

Do you need me to write it in another language, for better understanding?

The literal word was literally not 'original', it was 'classic'; the greater point is that it is immaterial to the point either way. Kforcer was referring to the rules used during it's hey-day, it's biggest and most popular period, the period that will be the first thing in almost anyone's mind when one says the phrase 'japanese combat wrestling', and that should've be obvious to anyone capable of sensing context clues in any language. You can note how there were actually multiple incarnations of the rules, some predating the ones he was talking about even - but you can't say the ones he was talking about didn't even exist because you are insecure about your own rules or something.

For some reason you seemed to be trying to argue that the combat wrestling rules as they exist now are the same rules that were used during it's hey-day, the period he is talking about - which is not true, as you yourself acknowledged by talking about changes you presided over.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Yes the word used was 'original'; my point is that that is immaterial to the point. Kforcer was referring to the rules used during it's hey-day, it's biggest and most popular period, the period that will be the first thing in almost anyone's mind when one says the phrase 'japanese combat wrestling', and that should've be obvious to anyone capable of sensing context clues in any language. You can note how there were actually multiple incarnations of the rules, some predating the ones he was talking about even - but you can't say the ones he was talking about didn't even exist because you are insecure about your own rules or something.

For some reason you seemed to be trying to argue that the combat wrestling rules as they exist now are the same rules that were used during it's hey-day, the period he is talking about - which is not true, as you yourself acknowledge by talking about changes you presided over.

Do you have any proof to show it was the hey-day?
Which year, how many competitors, where was the event held and how many spectators live and on TV?

 

[rmongler]

Do you have any proof to show it was the hey-day?
Which year, how many competitors, where was the event held and how many spectators live and on TV?

Pedantery; a feeble attempt to avoid the real point, due to lacking a real response to the real point.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

For some reason, there are people around here, mainly from CACC circles, who are desperately trying to claim everything and using straw man logic for some stupid lineages, that nobody cares about.

And here I am, been there, training and competing with those exact guys, we are discussing, in the periods we are discussing.

Tell me again, what is it that you "think" happened and why is it relevant?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Pedantery; a feeble attempt to avoid the real point, due to lacking a real response to the real point.

No.
Just straight up data.
If you claim something, you must provide proofs.
Thats how adult communication is conducted

 

[rmongler]

No.
Just straight up data.
If you claim something, you must provide proofs.
Thats how adult communication is conducted

Friend, if you actually read the posts, you would be able to tell all by yourself.

They had minimal points for positioning (like, 1 point for side mount, mount and back mount) up to 5 points for a major throw, 1 point for a regular takedown where you brought someone down to his butt, 2 points for a "catch", i.e., a submission that was fully sunk in and causing the opponent to focus everything on defending and once in a match, you could score points for a "pin", 1 point for holding an opponent down 10 seconds, 2 points for 20 seconds and 3 points for 30 seconds. They also restarted things on the feet if the action reached a stalemate on the ground or stalled out and called out stalling pretty aggressively.

Now: are these, or are these not, rules that have ever been used by the organization of 'combat wrestling' ?

If they are, then you will know, immediately and right away, what period(s) the subject was referring too.

 

[Kforcer]

Do you have any proof to show it was the hey-day?
Which year, how many competitors, where was the event held and how many spectators live and on TV?

Well, I would think that for a lot of people, the heyday for many fans would be the era that saw guys like Imanari, Sato, Gomi and Uno competing. Those guys are big names even now and the crowds were pretty big too. Of course, you see videos from that era posted and reposted on Youtube and I think many people's eyes, that's what they think of when they think of Combat Wrestling.

But hey, you are correct that I was mistaken about the original version of the rule-set not including catch-points. Years ago, when I was watching Combat Wrestling all the time and always reading up on the rule-set, I might have known that, but I must have forgotten. And in any event, I think it is very impressive what you are doing with Combat Wrestling.

At the same time, guys like Rumina Sato, Takefumi Hanai, Masakazu Imanari and Katsuya Toida were huge influences on me--and many others--as grapplers and as fans of grappling so of course the era they were competing in is going to be a Golden Era in my eyes. I also do think that the action in that era stands out as the pinnacle of what grappling can be aesthetically; even people that didn't know anything about grappling whom I showed that 2005 Combat Wrestling Anniversary DVD to were entertained and intrigued.

I agree that excitement is subjective, but given that the topic is which rule-set is most exciting or entertaining, I'm just giving my 2-cents.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Friend, if you actually read the posts, you would be able to tell all by yourself.
Me and this guy you quote, have been already discuss


Now: are these, or are these not, rules that have ever been used by the organization of 'combat wrestling' ?

If they are, then you will know, immediately and right away, what period(s) the subject was referring too.

Me and the guy you quote, have been discussing in other threads Combat Wrestling.

It seems he has watched some videos from certain period of times, but is not aware of anything, regarding teams, politics and involvement of specific figures and circles in Combat Wrestling.

He was even under the impression I have "bought" the Combat Wrestling rule set from mr. Kiguchi

So, again, when you want to discuss something, you better come prepared.

If you claim certain period was the hey-day, prove it.
Its easy.

Not so much, if you dont have the data.
And if you dont have the data, then how can you claim something?
Its merely your personal opinion.
Not. A. Fact

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Well, I would think that for a lot of people, the heyday for many fans would be the era that saw guys like Imanari, Sato, Gomi and Uno competing. Those guys are big names even now and the crowds were pretty big too. Of course, you see videos from that era posted and reposted on Youtube and I think many people's eyes, that's what they think of when they think of Combat Wrestling.

But hey, you are correct that I was mistaken about the original version of the rule-set not including catch-points. Years ago, when I was watching Combat Wrestling all the time and always reading up on the rule-set, I might have known that, but I must have forgotten. And in any event, I think it is very impressive what you are doing with Combat Wrestling.

At the same time, guys like Rumina Sato, Takefumi Hanai, Masakazu Imanari and Katsuya Toida were huge influences on me--and many others--as grapplers and as fans of grappling so of course the era they were competing in is going to be a Golden Era in my eyes. I also do think that the action in that era stands out as the pinnacle of what grappling can be aesthetically; even people that didn't know anything about grappling whom I showed that 2005 Combat Wrestling Anniversary DVD to were entertained and intrigued.

I agree that excitement is subjective, but given that the topic is which rule-set is most exciting or entertaining, I'm just giving my 2-cents.

Exactly my point:
You are making conclusions, based on your personal opinion, formed from watching videos of mid 2000s.

Thing is, there were NO videos from early stages, but the grappling scene wasnt smaller.
So, from your logic, what you havent seen, doesnt exist.

Mr. Kiguchi was a famous guy way before the creation of Combat Wrestling.
Way before Youtube existed.
Guys involved at the time were also very famous grapplers, that the likes of the ones you talk abut, were looking up to.

Gomi was a 16 years old teen, when the first Combat Wrestling events were held.
Sakurai was 17, Rumina Sato was 19, Imanari was 18, Genki Sudo was 16.
So, who were their role models?
The OGs of Combat Wrestling.

Again, if anyone feels the need to prove the events in question were the hey-days, please feel free to post accurate data.

 

[Kforcer]

It seems he has watched some videos from certain period of times, but is not aware of anything, regarding teams, politics and involvement of specific figures and circles in Combat Wrestling.

He was even under the impression I have "bought" the Combat Wrestling rule set from mr. Kiguchi

What do you mean by not being aware of teams involved in Combat Wrestling...? In terms of athletes, everyone is aware of what teams were involved because of course, they list the teams of the competitors on the screen for one thing. And I never claimed to be aware of internal politics for Combat Wrestling or even for local grappling events.

Exactly my point:
You are making conclusions, based on your personal opinion, formed from watching videos of mid 2000s.

Thing is, there were NO videos from early stages, but the grappling scene wasnt smaller.
So, from your logic, what you havent seen, doesnt exist.

Mr. Kiguchi was a famous guy way before the creation of Combat Wrestling.
Way before Youtube existed.
Guys involved at the time were also very famous grapplers, that the likes of the ones you talk abut, were looking up to.

Gomi was a 16 years old teen, when the first Combat Wrestling events were held.
Sakurai was 17, Rumina Sato was 19, Imanari was 18, Genki Sudo was 16.
So, who were their role models?
The OGs of Combat Wrestling.

Again, if anyone feels the need to prove the events in question were the hey-days, please feel free to post accurate data.

Bro, you're not telling me anything I didn't know. I was watching Combat Wrestling before Youtube existed and of course I'm familiar with Kiguchi, former Olympic wrestler, one of the major figures in early Shooto, head of one of the most important MMA, wrestling and grappling gyms. I even hunted down one of the rarer Combat Wrestling events where it was featured on Samurai TV; its a tournament that wasn't featured on the Combat Wrestling anniversary DVD.

One of the earliest ones I saw, which I think its one of the very first tournaments, was the one where Kazuhiro Kusayanagi took first place in the same weight division as a young Rumin Sato. Honestly, I think that was the inaugural Combat Wrestling national championship or if not that, one of the very early ones.

But that's all beside the point, anyways. We were talking about rule-sets and formats that we thought were the most exciting or had the best chance of pulling in the greater public. I definitely maintain that the era of Combat Wrestling I was referring had a good format for that.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

What do you mean by not being aware of teams involved in Combat Wrestling...? In terms of athletes, everyone is aware of what teams were involved because of course, they list the teams of the com


Bro, you're not telling me anything I didn't know. I was watching Combat Wrestling before Youtube existed and of course I'm familiar with Kiguchi, former Olympic wrestler, one of the major figures in early Shooto, head of one of the most important MMA, wrestling and grappling gyms. I even hunted down one of the rarer Combat Wrestling events where it was featured on Samurai TV; its a tournament that wasn't featured on the Combat Wrestling anniversary DVD.

One of the earliest ones I saw, which I think its one of the very first tournaments, was the one where Kazuhiro Kusayanagi took first place in the same weight division as a young Rumin Sato. Honestly, I think that was the inaugural Combat Wrestling national championship or if not that, one of the very early ones.

But that's all beside the point, anyways. We were talking about rule-sets and formats that we thought were the most exciting or had the best chance of pulling in the greater public. I definitely maintain that the era of Combat Wrestling I was referring had a good format for that.

Perfect!

So you have no problem stating the numbers I requested.

What are they and when is the hey-day?

 

[Kforcer]

Perfect!

So you have no problem stating the numbers I requested.

What are they and when is the hey-day?

Heyday is a subjective term but I already told you which era I saw as such.

I don't have anything against the era prior to that and I enjoyed watching that as well for whatever it is worth. As far as guys that people like Rumina Sato and Sakurai look up to, Naoki Sakurada and especially Noboru Asahi--whom Sato said made him what he was--are some of my favorites to watch. I never said anything that I think could be construed as disrespectful to that era.