Westside for skinny bastards

FishinWithFredo

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SS is growing stale for me and my upper body is lagging aesthetically. Was looking into Westside for skinny bastards and I noticed I can run the entire program without a single back squat. Also it seems like quite a bit of machine work, is that a problem?

(On an unrelated note, can anybody confirm reverse hypers are god tier for fixing back problems)
 
SS is growing stale for me and my upper body is lagging aesthetically. Was looking into Westside for skinny bastards and I noticed I can run the entire program without a single back squat. Also it seems like quite a bit of machine work, is that a problem?

(On an unrelated note, can anybody confirm reverse hypers are god tier for fixing back problems)

Westside, like any other program ,has its pros and cons. Its good if you have trouble adding muscle, strength or just want a change of pace. Cons is the machines and the high volume plus the big 3 are not trained consistently as in Starr's 5x5. How long have you been on SS? If you're stalling you might want to read the following article

FAQ:The Program - Starting Strength Wiki

P.S. reverse hypers and standard hyperextensions are good for strengthing the lower back especially when done with DLs.
 
How long have you been doing SS?

What do you plan to use if not back squats? Deadlift, sumo deadlift, tireflips, rack pulls, and trap bar deadlift are the only alternatives - not exactly easier on the back than squats. Also, there isn't much machine work at all other than a hyperextension, reverse hyper, a GHR if you got it, and the cable stack for face pulls, scarecrows, pull downs, some ab exercises, and pull throughs.

(Yes, I have seen reverse hypers recommended on here for lower back and SI joint rehab.)
 
i went into a blind white rage when i read "
and I noticed I can run the entire program without a single back squat. Also it seems like quite a bit of machine work, is that a problem?
"



odd. why avoid back squats ?
 
I've read (and memorized) pretty much that entire wikipedia. Been on SS 4-5 months with a measly 225 back squat for 3x5. It's pathetic because even with dietary considerations and proper rest, I can probably do more but my form goes down the tubes past 225. I've deloaded on it twice already.

So far Westside Barbell routine is looking like this

Monday
Barbell Bench 1x5
Dumbell Bench 3x10
Barbell Row 4x10
Clean and Jerk 5x3
Weighted Crunches 3x8

Wednesday
Deadlift 1x5
Barbell step-up 3x10
Reverse hyper 4x10
Assorted grip training

Friday
Barbell Bench 3xF
Skullcrushers 3x8
Lat Pulldown 4x10
Dumbell shoulder press 3x10
Hammer Curls 3x10
Abs

With assorted jump rope and MMA training.

Thats a SHITLOAD of upper body work


EDIT:
I'm not trying to avoid back squats lol...in fact im wondering why this program is squat free even though it is recommended for beginners/intermediates.

Also, I'll post a form check video when I get the chance. Probably on sunday
 
Its not as simple as just choosing exercises from his lists and following the routine every week, the periodization scheme he uses is more important than any specific exercises.

The main lift on ME day needs to change every 2-3 weeks. For example on ME Lower day you'd do DL for 2-3 weeks, then high bar squats 2-3 weeks, then rack pulls 2-3weeks, then box squats 2-3 weeks, then tire flips 2-3 weeks, then back to DL, etc. The same goes for ME Upper day- rotate Bench, Floor press, incline, close grip, etc. for 2-3 weeks at a time. You can use a lot of variety or try less, ie. Im just rotating DL, high bar squat, and box squat at the moment.

For the rep day main exercise you're doing 3xFailure on exercise A for 2-3 weeks, 3xFailure on exercise B for 2 weeks, then 4x12-15 on exercise C for 2 weeks, then restarting the rep cycle again with the same or different exercises.

The supplemental and accessory lifts on all days stay in for around 6 weeks at a time.

If you're interested, this should explain the reasoning behind it:
Adaptation through a introduction of a new variable (usually by volume or intensity OR by the modification of an exercise OR by the introduction of a new exercise) is the foundational principle of modern strength training. For the body to respond to a stress placed upon it, that stress cannot be habituated, i.e. it cannot be repeated over and over again. Do the same thing consistently and the body ceases to respond.

Again, this is the foundational principle of modern strength training. It's clearly stated in both eastern and western methodologies of training, though the approaches are different. It's found in virtually every legitimate strength training program for years and years. And yes, it could be crudely termed "muscle confusion."

So, what separates adaptation from "muscle confusion"? Well, the latter is the bastardized commercial version, and it gets a few things very wrong. First, the planned progression is haphazardly designed and pretty much incoherent, both in the training and in the diet. "Muscle confusion" operates like so:

A, then B, then C, then D, then E, etc.

In other words, do workout A, then do a different workout (B), then another different workout (C), and so on, and so on. It's a sort of organized chaos, and it's different from a strength training program like starting strength:

A, then A+, then A++, then A+++, then A++++, etc.

Which is to do workout A, then to do it a little better (A+), then to do it a little better than A+ (A++), with the intervals between these over time slowly closing as per the law of diminishing returns. It's not that dissimilar to 5/3/1:

A, then A+, then A++, then A-, then A1, then A1+, etc.

In which volume is downgraded relative to intensity over a three-week mesocycle, followed by a one-week deload (A-), and returning with an A1 week in which intensity is upgraded slightly over A but volume remains the same. Or, the westside template:

A, then B, then C, then D, then E, then B+, then D+, then A+, then E+, etc.

In which main exercises are cycled through at a regular basis (usually randomly) and adjusted slightly when they're returned to, because the lifter is slightly stronger than before.


The difference is that all of these abide by planned progression in some form. There is a starting point (always A), and an end-point, or goal, in mind, and that goal is measured by the change in performance between A and the end-point. "Muscle confusion" does not follow suit, save for the vague end-point of a "90-day better you," which in an untrained person is achievable pretty much regardless of the type of exercise or the type of programming, provided the intensity and volume are high enough so as to require significant effort.

Hope that clears it up, as this is a pretty important distinction to know.

edit: For further reading on the actual Westside method, where Defranco derives his program: The Periodization Bible — Part I
 
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I've read (and memorized) pretty much that entire wikipedia. Been on SS 4-5 months with a measly 225 back squat for 3x5. It's pathetic because even with dietary considerations and proper rest, I can probably do more but my form goes down the tubes past 225. I've deloaded on it twice already.

So far Westside Barbell routine is looking like this

Monday
Barbell Bench 1x5
Dumbell Bench 3x10
Barbell Row 4x10
Clean and Jerk 5x3
Weighted Crunches 3x8

Wednesday
Deadlift 1x5
Barbell step-up 3x10
Reverse hyper 4x10
Assorted grip training

Friday
Barbell Bench 3xF
Skullcrushers 3x8
Lat Pulldown 4x10
Dumbell shoulder press 3x10
Hammer Curls 3x10
Abs


That's alot of work right there. Better off doing the main lift and then two or three assistance exercises. Also if you're going to do a clean and jerk its best you do it as a main lift AND first thing in the workout.
 
Its not as simple as just choosing exercises from his lists and following the routine every week, the periodization scheme he uses is more important than any specific exercises.

The main lift on ME day needs to change every 2-3 weeks. For example on ME Lower day you'd do DL for 2-3 weeks, then high bar squats 2-3 weeks, then rack pulls 2-3weeks, then box squats 2-3 weeks, then tire flips 2-3 weeks, then back to DL, etc. The same goes for ME Upper day- rotate Bench, Floor press, incline, close grip, etc. for 2-3 weeks at a time. You can use a lot of variety or try less, ie. Im just rotating DL, high bar squat, and box squat at the moment.

For the rep day main exercise you're doing 3xFailure on exercise A for 2-3 weeks, 3xFailure on exercise B for 2 weeks, then 4x12-15 on exercise C for 2 weeks, then restarting the rep cycle again with the same or different exercises.

The supplemental and accessory lifts on all days stay in for around 6 weeks at a time.

If you're interested, this should explain the reasoning behind it:


edit: For further reading on the actual Westside method, where Defranco derives his program: The Periodization Bible — Part I
Alright very good explanation. Only question I have is wouldn't going say 6-8 weeks without deadlifting be a bad thing?
Also I found it kind of weird that his program is steered towards athletes but he fails to include any oly movements
 
Alright very good explanation. Only question I have is wouldn't going say 6-8 weeks without deadlifting be a bad thing?
Also I found it kind of weird that his program is steered towards athletes but he fails to include any oly movements

I didn't DL for a whole 7 weeks and when I went back to it last week my DL PR went up 20lbs + 1rep, and then another 10-20lbs today. Next week I will go back to squat (then box squat) for 6 weeks, then return to DL in 7 weeks to hit a new PR.

Defranco likes jump training, which is introduced in the 4-day version of his program. His rationale is that the important part of the oly lift is the triple extension, and jumping off the ground is essentially hitting triple extension without having to coach an athlete on proper oly lifting.

This program is not good if you want to add 100lbs to your squat/bench/dl/whatever in 6 weeks, its good for getting overall bigger and stronger little by little.
 
You're struggling on your squat at 225, and you want to build a program focused on upper body? Why not address the issues with your squat. Post a form check.

The program you listed has waaaay to much upper body work and not enough lower.

Lastly, what exactly are your goals with lifting?
 
You're struggling on your squat at 225, and you want to build a program focused on upper body? Why not address the issues with your squat. Post a form check.

The program you listed has waaaay to much upper body work and not enough lower.

Lastly, what exactly are your goals with lifting?

I shall post a form check on Sunday.

I'm aware that its too much upper body, thats why I was confused.

Goals are the usual get stronger yada yada yada

I was getting the template from here btw
Westside for Skinny Bastards A modified lifting program for "Hardgainers" - DeFranco's Training
 
first of all read through it again, its greatest weakness is trying to appeal to everybody and therefore sliding in all the opportunities for machines and no back squats. IMO doing it that way is foolishness to the extreme.

I gained 20 lbs on it. I had a lot of muscular imbalance from swimming that didn't work so good on dry ground, it was a great get healthy program for me. I've never felt better in my life, and I'm in afghanistan not having any issues (well now that my achilles tendon got better damn ultimate frisbee)

If your not doing back squats your not going to get bigger.

if your not doing back squats, your not going to get more powerful, stronger muscles perhaps but you won't be able to implement it in anything you do so whats the point.
 
first of all read through it again, its greatest weakness is trying to appeal to everybody and therefore sliding in all the opportunities for machines and no back squats. IMO doing it that way is foolishness to the extreme.

I gained 20 lbs on it. I had a lot of muscular imbalance from swimming that didn't work so good on dry ground, it was a great get healthy program for me. I've never felt better in my life, and I'm in afghanistan not having any issues (well now that my achilles tendon got better damn ultimate frisbee)

If your not doing back squats your not going to get bigger.

if your not doing back squats, your not going to get more powerful, stronger muscles perhaps but you won't be able to implement it in anything you do so whats the point.

Errr I think it is entirely possible to get a large, strong physique without back squats. They are however, the easiest lift for beginners to progress on.
 
first of all read through it again, its greatest weakness is trying to appeal to everybody and therefore sliding in all the opportunities for machines and no back squats. IMO doing it that way is foolishness to the extreme.

I gained 20 lbs on it. I had a lot of muscular imbalance from swimming that didn't work so good on dry ground, it was a great get healthy program for me. I've never felt better in my life, and I'm in afghanistan not having any issues (well now that my achilles tendon got better damn ultimate frisbee)

If your not doing back squats your not going to get bigger.

if your not doing back squats, your not going to get more powerful, stronger muscles perhaps but you won't be able to implement it in anything you do so whats the point.
You mean squats in general, right?

Not just back squats.
 
I think the people who are saying there is way too much upper body aren't fully reading the program properly. This program is made with athletes in mind, so he is leaving room for other forms of training geared towards whatever sport the person is playing. He clearly says for those who are not athletes trying to gain size and strength you are more than welcome to add other lifts or even lift on days that are suppose to be off days (I use the first template which has 3 days, the others I think have more days of lifting but I am not sure)
 
Errr I think it is entirely possible to get a large, strong physique without back squats. They are however, the easiest lift for beginners to progress on.

You mean squats in general, right?

Not just back squats.

Is it possible to get bigger and stronger without back squats? Yes. Is it a good idea to try and get bigger and stronger without back squats if you both have the necessary equipment and can back squat without undue injury risk? No.

There's a damn good reason why pretty much everyone who could be considered especially strong does back squats.
 
Errr I think it is entirely possible to get a large, strong physique without back squats. They are however, the easiest lift for beginners to progress on.

i zercher squat over 300. the last time i had the equipment to back squat i barely hit 250. there is a reason why the back squat is either beating or close to beating the deadlift as the king of all lifts.








...... i want stands :icon_cry2
 
Is it possible to get bigger and stronger without back squats? Yes. Is it a good idea to try and get bigger and stronger without back squats if you both have the necessary equipment and can back squat without undue injury risk? No.

There's a damn good reason why pretty much everyone who could be considered especially strong does back squats.

Why is doing something other than back squats not a good idea? I mainly do front squats, granted I also throw high bar squats in there, but are you saying I should be doing the opposite?

Edit: I guess I got your "why", my real question would be the second one.
 
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Why is doing something other than back squats not a good idea? I mainly do front squats, granted I also throw high bar squats in there, but are you saying I should be doing the opposite?

I'm saying you shouldn't neglect the back squat. There's nothing wrong with doing front squats more often than back squats.
 
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