weight room conditioning vs. sport specific conditioning for kickboxing

[Catweiser]

help me out here f13 Ive realized I dont know shit about this topic.

basically, I can see the benefit for pure strikers developing power/strength in the weight room. Run that linear progression, increase maxes, do general 'splosion exercises, do sport specific power work so your new strength carries over into your sport. benefits = not having the hormone profile of a marathon runner, doing everything better, chicks like it when u can pick em up and throw them around

however, I dont see the benefit from working high rep, low rest period weight routines. this keeps me away from doing stuff like juggernaut 2.0, basically I dont see how strength endurance carries over to this sport. like, I see it for crossfit and grappling but really not sure about pure striking.

shit, bazooka joe has even turned me off running. cardio is sport specific, so if you have access to a heavy bag/shadow boxing why would you ever run? Especially when the skill ceiling for kickboxing is basically infinite. ie. you better have a good reason for spending time doing any work that isnt technique related. go to thailand and train with 15 yr olds to see the fluidity of movement that is possible.

im gonna go pound some more espresso, and hope somebody smarter than I am can drop some knowledge maybe show me if I'm off track.

 

[vision1]

Do some research.

Chicks really don't like when you throw them around.

Cardio is not sport specific. Maybe you don't know what cardio means.

 

[SandaKicker]

Valtellini's argument's in favour of not running are contentious;



For instance he argues that the primary energy system used in kickboxing is the anaerobic system.

This paper argued that the primary energy system used in 3 X 2 minutes amateur boxing was the aerobic system;

https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ijspp/9/2/article-p233.xml

They are different sports although they do have similarities. Valtellini actually fights for a longer time than those amateur boxer's.

You could argue about Valtellini's first hand experiences but I would argue Mayweather is a much higher calibre athlete than Valtellini;

 

[Catweiser]

damn this caffeine addiction. I wanted to focus on the strength-endurance question over the running thing.

On running: joel jamieson/8 weeks out/other smart people agree with yalls point that aerobic is primary. folks think they should train sprints and ignore aerobic development only because "the sport is explosive bursts". I dont dispute that aerobic development is probably goal #1 for strikers. still, neither of you have provided a reason we should run vs. skill work.

running probably has its place. but lets say were doing a thai style slow run for aerobic development. im pretty sure most people are going to be better served by working that intensity for the same period while developing skills (shadow, bagwork). slap a heart rate monitor on if you have to. like I said, especially for a sport where many of us are 10yrs behind in terms of skill/practice work.

im not all about "sport specificity at all times". lifting isnt boxing either, theres a performance benefit when you develop stuff that wont come naturally by doing the sport. just dont see what running magically does rather than work heart rate in various intensities. which can obviously be done with a heart rate monitor/self-regulating in front of a heavy bag or working technique in front of a mirror.

I see it as: if you dont have access to a mirror/bag then run your face off. if you have 6hrs a day to train hell yes lets run. if youve been training technique since 6yrs old then run.

if youre 20-30yr old dude like most people, with limited time to train/recover, and you really want to suck less at kickboxing soon I would be very intentional about where you spend your limited training time.

at the same time I accept that I dont know shit, just give me a better reason that I can follow that isnt "mayweather runs, fighting is primarily aerobic".

 

[Catweiser]

Do some research.

Chicks really don't like when you throw them around.

Cardio is not sport specific. Maybe you don't know what cardio means.

The good ones do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/health/16best.html

So I should do my marathon training on an elliptical? Maybe you got me on the semantic definition of cardio. Maybe you know something I don't about what the research says re. cross training.

 

[vision1]

So I should do my marathon training on an elliptical?

What does an elliptical have to do with it?
In regards to training your cardiovascular system, you could train it on an elliptical. Depends on the person and the situation. A competitive marathon runner may not see improvements training in that fashion as they may be limited by specific muscle endurance using an elliptical vs. jogging.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Unless you’re a mid/high level pro you are probably better off training your sport, yes.

 

[Catweiser]

What does an elliptical have to do with it?
In regards to training your cardiovascular system, you could train it on an elliptical. Depends on the person and the situation. A competitive marathon runner may not see improvements training in that fashion as they may be limited by specific muscle endurance using an elliptical vs. jogging.

yees.....soooo.....elliptical is to marathon runner as running is to boxer. alllll I was trying to say. most folks on this forum oighta run less and drill more.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

help me out here f13 Ive realized I dont know shit about this topic.

basically, I can see the benefit for pure strikers developing power/strength in the weight room. Run that linear progression, increase maxes, do general 'splosion exercises, do sport specific power work so your new strength carries over into your sport. benefits = not having the hormone profile of a marathon runner, doing everything better, chicks like it when u can pick em up and throw them around

however, I dont see the benefit from working high rep, low rest period weight routines. this keeps me away from doing stuff like juggernaut 2.0, basically I dont see how strength endurance carries over to this sport. like, I see it for crossfit and grappling but really not sure about pure striking.

shit, bazooka joe has even turned me off running. cardio is sport specific, so if you have access to a heavy bag/shadow boxing why would you ever run? Especially when the skill ceiling for kickboxing is basically infinite. ie. you better have a good reason for spending time doing any work that isnt technique related. go to thailand and train with 15 yr olds to see the fluidity of movement that is possible.

im gonna go pound some more espresso, and hope somebody smarter than I am can drop some knowledge maybe show me if I'm off track.

The reason a lot of strikers don’t lift heavy is because:
1. It’s very taxing on the body

1a. This means you won’t have energy to train.
Have you tried doing anything the day after heavy squats? You can barely sit on the toilet, let alone have the muscle endurance to train for 2 hours. You WILL gas out training unless you are fully recovered. And its just not possible to recover from heavy lifts that fast.

1b. When you micro tear your muscles it makes you very injury prone when playing sports

2. If you aren’t very diligent it can make you very stiff and inflexible.

I don’t lift very heavy unless I’m focusing on getting stronger and not training very often or I lift heavy but only after training but only 1-2 exercises and only 3 working sets or less

 

[SandaKicker]

On running: joel jamieson/8 weeks out/other smart people agree with yalls point that aerobic is primary. folks think they should train sprints and ignore aerobic development only because "the sport is explosive bursts". I dont dispute that aerobic development is probably goal #1 for strikers.

I don’t think there’s any evidence running is an essential exercise, more like an optional exercise that may have benefit.

 

[vision1]

yees.....soooo.....elliptical is to marathon runner as running is to boxer.

It's really not the same type of comparison.

You are right though that beginners-intermediates should focus as much of their time as possible on the sport itself.

 

[Blake_UK]

Valtellini's argument's in favour of not running are contentious;



For instance he argues that the primary energy system used in kickboxing is the anaerobic system.

This paper argued that the primary energy system used in 3 X 2 minutes amateur boxing was the aerobic system;

https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ijspp/9/2/article-p233.xml

They are different sports although they do have similarities. Valtellini actually fights for a longer time than those amateur boxer's.

You could argue about Valtellini's first hand experiences but I would argue Mayweather is a much higher calibre athlete than Valtellini;

It's an interesting point which I think depends somewhat on individual style.
I have always had a good anaerobic system but have struggled with my weight down the years and can gas out relatively easily. I found this applied much more to grappling than striking where being able to keep your opponent at bay with big shots can cover a lot of cardio shortfalls.
I tend to agree that fight specific training (and HIIT cardio) is a better use of time (bag/padwork etc) alongside strength training than long runs/cycles/swims.

 

[Ian Coe]

If you can recover and have the time, train;
-strength (power and explosiveness)
-pure cardio (LSD work, some sprints if you REALLY want to)
-sport specific drills and conditioning

If you are of working age and have to work as well, 1 and 3 on that lift, focusing on number 3.

About....fuck, 18 years ago. Sorry, I need to think about how old I am now...........fuck.

Anyway, when I was at uni I was training about 22 hours a week all in.
Monday - Saturday evenings was Muay Thai. 2 hour sessions covering pad work, sparring, drills - 12 hours
Monday, Wednesday, Saturday morning I would do weights - 5-6 hours
Tuesday, Thursday I would kickbox with the university lot. I was late teens and early 20s. There were many lovely ladies. Although ironically I couldn't give a shit as I was there to punch the guys in the face - 1.5 - 2 hours a go. Sometimes there was sparring on the Saturdays so I would do weights then spar. - Excl the occasional - 4 hours
Thu evening I would come back from evening MT and do a HARD 3-4 miler. I used to put on a mini disk (or cassette player), drop off my bag and go get it. Note; this is after weights in the morning (squats, 5x5 at 140kg I think I got to @ 82kg at 5 ft 11) and 2 hours of MT training in a gym known for cardio ability of their fighters.

Sunday I might have off because at this stage of my life I didn't really do 'running'. Sometimes, especially as a 20 year old, I would just be angry and go and do some hard hill sprints.


So yeah, train weights, cardio and sports. But don't expect to be able to do anything else and don't expect a life. Why you would subject yourself to that volume without a actual goal I don't know.

Also; I did a physics degree while doing the above. I was fucking exhausted mentally and physically the entire time.


Edit; If it weren't for my wife and son, I would trade it all in to be back doing that again though.
Loved smashing people in the face. Probably why I trained so much.

I

 

[Deleted member 576123]

This is an interesting post and some interesting responses.

I'm a true heavyweight and spent most training years kickboxing or Thai boxing.

I also did MMA for around 6 years and boxing for the last couple of years.

The difference between all 3 is so large (in my experience).

For MMA, between grappling and striking in the same lessons, there was very little room for separate lifting (which I enjoy).
Though, this was 2008 and before.
"lifting" involved sabdbags, kettlebells and weight plates for doing carries and movement drills. Nothing destroyed me whole body more than this. 3 or 4 x 2 hour sessions a week. Any 5th session was light drilling work.

Muay Thai specific was destructive to me.
I was training 4 Padwork or sparring sessions a week. Typically 90minutes a time. I was mid 20s and physically peaking.
I took it upon myself to do 2 or 3 weight training sessions aswell. Pretty much only powerlifting movements and was effectively full time training.
105kg bodyweight with no water weight to spare. Then after several months, I herniated discs and it put me out of Muay Thai for +1 year. The plyo, cardio and weight mix did not do me well at my height and frame.
Especially hill running.

After some recovery (though never fully), I ended up deadlifting as remedial work long term and building a strong back.
Perhaps 2 years after injury, I started doing k1 rules training and found that my natural fight weight, is around 115-120kg and being explosively strong helped exponentially.
I also found that running (3miles max) seemed to sap me beyond any weight training or padwork.

A concept2 rower gave me more options for endurance and lessen injury risk than a treadmill or roadwork.
And even more than that, swimming.

Now my hips are mostly ruined from kicking so I typically only box.
Getting boxing (fight) fit, again, pretty much takes away any recovery time or room for lifting (much or often).
Most of your core strength is exhausted during sparring rounds. I lose more weight still boxing. End up around 110kg lean and lose most of any leg strength I have.