Was comeback Foreman a scam?

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

guys that advanced have put in the time to eschew the things a beginner like him would need to know. It's the old thing you hear across many fields of interest, "you have to know the rules before you break the rules". Most great fighters do not hold their hands in "proper" boxing position, not in the past or the present. They know those rules though, Dempsey and Louis wrote boxing tutorials and they weren't always in line with how they fought. Foreman? Foreman was foreman, a force of nature, teaching him "proper" anything would have been a waste of valuable time. It was best just to let him go and improve him where they could. Liston was the same way, of course, the truth is, both of their shortcomings caught up to them with Ali but Ali was Ali, not some sammy lunchmeat.

I met a guy at autozone who claimed to have sparred and trained guys like George and Shavers. Do I believe him? Not necessarily but he clearly knows George's habits in a way most random fans wouldn't. He claimed to be able to dance and box George's ears off, I was skeptical because Ali said that George was the best he ever fought at cutting off the ring but the way he described it, how george would take that big step (part of the reason ali called him a mummy) and this guy would step to his left and wait for george to turn into him and clobber him with a hook. That's a thing that the random fan won't even know what he's saying, he's talking about walking the guy into his shot, making him turn into it. Anyway, it was sparring, didn't mean he'd beat him and didn't mean he didn't like or respect george's ability. Everyone has flaws, even Sugar Ray Robinson took too goddamned many punches. Duran couldn't handle boxers from a temperament point of view, Arguello couldn't deal with speed and movement, etcc., etc.., That doesn't mean we should shit on them. Fact of the matter is, I've seen some really great fundamental fighters and they just often don't have the attributes to get anywhere. The perfect technical fighter with no punch and no physical strength is gonna have a hard time in the sport, it's a lot more than technique, especially the pros.

George looked alarmingly bad in that fight. Walking straight in with his head down, not even bothering to set up his shots, falling forward with his arms flailing. There's no benefit in fighting like that. It's not like he was out there using it as bait or setting traps. He was just sloppy as hell, predictable, and extremely reckless. Especially considering that he didn't even attempt to pace himself. Instead he punched himself out. It isn't surprising that he got KO'd. He gave that fight away.

 

[mozfonky]

George looked alarmingly bad in that fight. Walking straight in with his head down, not even bothering to set up his shots, falling forward with his arms flailing. There's no benefit in fighting like that. It's not like he was out there using it as bait or setting traps. He was just sloppy as hell, predictable, and extremely reckless. Especially considering that he didn't even attempt to pace himself. Instead he punched himself out. It isn't surprising that he got KO'd. He gave that fight away.

he did, that's how he was beating guys then though and he was, like Liston before him, overconfident. It was false confidence though, and flse confidence can be shaken to the core at any challenge. If you've ever dealt with cocky acting people using that as a cover for insecurity, it's just like that, easy to make them fall to pieces (most good and badmartial artists are like that for some reason). The important thing to know is that on that night, had George tried any other strategy, Ali woulda had something for him. People talk shit about Ali laying on the ropes, but no one gives him the credit as a genius ring general for realizing in the first round that the conditions of the ring, it was mushy, a "slow ring", and realizing he couldn't move on that for long without exhausting himself, on top of that, as he said openly, George cut off the ring better than anyone ever did on him. So, Ali goes right where George wants him and he still loses. It's only people that didn't watch the fight or watched it with rose colored glasses, or just repeated the "he didn't do nothing for 7 rounds" Ali fought his ass off from the ropes, I believe he was winning on the card at that point too which decimates the, "all he did was take a beating for 8 rounds" talk. In some ways, the "rope a dope" was one of the worst things to happen to ali, he did it in fights before that and he did it in sparring a lot, thinking he was proving how tough he was and proving how brilliant the tactic was as his sparring partners got tired for nothing but the price to his health was tremendous and he idiotically did it in future fights with guys like Frazier and Spinks when it didn't help him a bit and he did it with Lyle when he didnt have to. Lyle was a fight that was even closer than the foreman fight, and maybe the third frazier fight, Ali lays back and luckily, he still had enough kick in his punches to take Lyle out with a ballsy fusilage but fights like that and so many of them didn't need to be that dramatic.

 

[defjaam]

Here's another vid where he trashes Ali. And he seems to be on the fence about his own words, because moments later he calls him a great and that Ali was obviously greater than someone like Tyson Fury.



I wish he'd find the golden mean, because he does bring up some valid points. But his phraseology is too condescending and therefore he degenerates into polemic the longer he talks.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Here's another vid where he trashes Ali. And he seems to be on the fence about his own words, because moments later he calls him a great and that Ali was obviously greater than someone like Tyson Fury.



I wish he'd find the golden mean, because he does bring up some valid points. But his phraseology is too condescending and therefore he degenerates into polemic the longer he talks.

I watched this whole video earlier on my own mostly out of boredom. He's admitted that Ali is an ATG but doesn't believe that he deserves to be the GOAT. Who does he consider #1 all-time at heavyweight? No idea.

 

[mozfonky]

I watched a pretty long George Foreman interview from when he was 55 and planning to fight again, he never did. But he said Ali wasn't even in his top 3 heavyweights. He mentioned Joe Louis and his long reign which will always be a good choice for ATG at HW but a lot of people will just say he fought a "bum of the month club" or that his style wouldn't be able to handle the changes in the sport or that the fighters got too big. At any rate, I was a bit surprised he wouldn't put Ali higher but then George has always had his own logic about boxing.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

Let's take a moment to appreciate the chin on this guy:

One of those guys who disproved the concept that you start to lose your chin as you age. He was still laughing off Shannon Briggs's punches at nearly 50.

Exceptions dont make rules. Foreman was never an average human in terms of his physical attributes/abillity, certainly way above the average boxing champion in those regards.

Nothing was disproved.

 

[TheGreatA]

Exceptions dont make rules. Foreman was never an average human in terms of his physical attributes/abillity, certainly way above the average boxing champion in those regards.

Nothing was disproved.

I've always been more of a believer that it's the accumulation of punishment that gradually makes a fighter more susceptible to being knocked out, rather than just age. Foreman, in his first career, never had too many "wars" apart from the Lyle fight, and he took about a decade off from boxing. If he had been boxing all those years, I'm not so sure his durability would've held up.

 

[TheGreatA]

I watched a pretty long George Foreman interview from when he was 55 and planning to fight again, he never did. But he said Ali wasn't even in his top 3 heavyweights. He mentioned Joe Louis and his long reign which will always be a good choice for ATG at HW but a lot of people will just say he fought a "bum of the month club" or that his style wouldn't be able to handle the changes in the sport or that the fighters got too big. At any rate, I was a bit surprised he wouldn't put Ali higher but then George has always had his own logic about boxing.

His logic was mostly that he preferred boxers who finished fights, which Joe Louis did. I got the feel that he didn't really even consider decisions as wins or losses, which is why he was pretty nonchalant about the Briggs loss for example. He already considered it a failure for not knocking the guy out.

Foreman had a 100% puncher's mentality, either the fight ended in a KO or he didn't care about it, one way or the other.

 

[mozfonky]

His logic was mostly that he preferred boxers who finished fights, which Joe Louis did. I got the feel that he didn't really even consider decisions as wins or losses, which is why he was pretty nonchalant about the Briggs loss for example. He already considered it a failure for not knocking the guy out.

Foreman had a 100% puncher's mentality, either the fight ended in a KO or he didn't care about it, one way or the other.

Maybe, I thought it may have been some residual resentment at Ali, I don't think he ever was at peace with the loss or that he should have been. He's went through phases saying Ali beat him fairly but then turning around saying he was poisoned, the ref gave a quick count (true) or that his cornermen mixed him up by not giving him the signal to get up. He also said he saw "a friend" in Zaire rooting for Ali midfight and that screwed his head up.

Nothing wrong with Louis as a choice, just find it odd when he saw firsthand what Ali could do when the chips were down, and it was against him. Without that one win, Ali would not be remembered the way he is, that one win put him over the top, he could go on to fuck off for the rest of his career and he'd still have been an ATG. The Frazier fight was icing on the cake and of course the Spinks rematch was all gravy.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

He did well for an old man, I actually thought the Holyfield fight was his best. His conditioning dropped off massively after that fight. Even in his prime, I'm not entirely sure he could put up a better effort against a prime Holyfield. He was just so wild, undisciplined and questionable as far as stamina in his youth, while against Holyfield he was like the polar opposite of that, a walking tank who uncompromisingly kept walking in and trying to get the kill.

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There was legit impact, what people miss out on is that Foreman was tagging him throughout the round. He had legit power but generally was too slow and clumsy to land anything clean. Now I do think Moorer should have been able to get up, he was conscious, but I guess he just had a moment of disbelief about being on the canvas after dominating the old guy throughout the fight.

I think it was a legit fight as Forrman put in a lot of work to keep Moorer from circling away from his right hand and Moorer fought in a somewhat complacent manner. The only thing I disagree with you on is his ability to get up.

I think it was a case of his consciousness being on receiving sensory inputs, but he was just basically "looking up at the lights", not really aware enough or in control of his body enough to make the 10 count.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

other than the Ali fight, did he ever go down, that was more to tiredness than anything else, the big fella was a rock

Jimmy Young also knocked him down while he was fatigued. A classic fight and the one in which he went down hard from clean punches was against Ron Lyle. It's worth a watch.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Lyle knocked him down legitimately a couple of times. Jimmy Young I think caught him with an off balance shot when he was gassed.

Back then every old school coach wanted you to weigh in under 220 pounds because that's the weight guys like Joe Louis fought at. I firmly believe that Foreman fought his early career somewhat drained by this practise, he was clearly a much bigger man who probably should've weighed closer to 230-240.

I've never heard that Foreman cut weight during his prime. It doesn't seem like a good idea for a heavyweight unless it's a guy that's just fat. His aggressive style probably contributed to him gassing in longer fights. He seemed to have less of a problem with fatigue in his return where he fought with a more paced style relying on his stiff jab.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

Foreman was and is awesome. You suck

 

[Intermission]

So, just looking at a few records from that era and comeback Foreman literally lost to any half decent fighter he fought, apart from one shot against one of the chinniest title holders ever

people often talk about the comeback like it was some mythical event, and in reality he was fighting bums, he also lost to Schulz, he even admitted as much after that fight

he refused to fight Lewis, Tucker, Tyson and the rematch against Schulz

Foreman was stiff as a refrigerator in his comeback and claims he forgot how to box. With all that considered it¨¨s quite impressive

 

[Intermission]

Foreman had a 100% puncher's mentality, either the fight ended in a KO or he didn't care about it, one way or the other.

There was nowhere else for him to go. he didnt have any defence. Old Foreman improved on that a little bit but he still got hit at will.

A bit like Chuck Liddell.