Was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a mistake? Deconstructing BJJ

[HHJ]

Want to know what's funnier? Maybe if Yoshi had tried a guard pull/jump he would have won lol

But maybe it's just my memory playing a trick on me, I think the fight went to the ground in fact, Yoshi just didn't finish.

I think he tried to shoot,and Gardner just sprawled it out and they just got awkwardly stuck in that position,and gardner would just hit him from there

 

[LoClohs]

Look at Nogueira vs Barnett I + II for a classic and competitive rivalry between these styles.

1 - 1

Barnett is another who did not produce afaik. I mean, say what you want about the BJJrs, they produced fighters at least. The rivalry between BTT and Chute Box in PRIDE for example, had BJJ on both sides. With BTT being BJJ as a base and Chute Box having BJJ as their grappling.

 

[Human Bass]

Always important to remember that Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo are extremely different styles. Combat Sambo is closer to bjj than to sport sambo. Sport Sambo doesnt allow chokes and punishes the guard by considering it a pin.

 

[LoClohs]

I think he tried to shoot,and Gardner just sprawled it out and they just got awkwardly stuck in that position,and gardner would just hit him from there

He should have tried underhook and trip. But I think that demonstrates the strange place that Judo finds itself.

Wrestlers are very good at TDD and TD already, and BJJ is more worthwhile as a learned art than Judo when they want to learn subs.

And you have the examples of Ben and Kimura's student demonstrating what happens when someone doesn't follow the BJJ positioning and the rules allow strikes to the back of the head, neck, and spine. Although I think Rickson didn't use Back Mount striking in that fight. Is common knowledge NOW, but there was one day it wanst.

 

[LoClohs]

You don't , you transition to another throw. An elite Judoka will KO most non-wrestler MMA fighters and BJJers by throwing them on their heads outside in a hard surface.

The submission is the finish if necessary, on a stunned opponent.

Someone should warn the medalist Ben Spijkers



and the Kimura's student who faced Rickson.

 

[LoClohs]

Biggest misconception imo.
Since its very early days MMA was tilted towards to wrestling + boxing / GnP model. Not a BJJ model.

Royce won, if I remember correctly, the first five UFCs, Renzo and Rickson won fights also, BTT is BJJ team, and Chute Boxe is Muay Thai (+ BJJ).

I believe you are factually incorrect.

 

[Reffson]

Sambo>>>>>>>>BJJ

Stupid. Chicken Kabob quit rather than face Charles. A prime Rickson chokes him dead 10 outa 10.

 

[Reffson]

Someone should warn the medalist Ben Spijkers



and the Kimura's student who faced Rickson.

Rickson punched a lot harder than the other Gracies. He could have won every one of his fights by GNP if he chose to do so.

 

[Reffson]

Royce won, if I remember correctly, the first five UFCs, Renzo and Rickson won fights also, BTT is BJJ team, and Chute Boxe is Muay Thai (+ BJJ).

I believe you are factually incorrect.

True. The wrestling/GNP/boxing model started taking over when they changed the rules from no rounds nor time limits to 5 minute rounds.

 

[LoClohs]

Stupid. Chicken Kabob quit rather than face Charles. A prime Rickson chokes him dead 10 outa 10.

I don't believe Rickson could beat Khabib, the sport has evolved a lot, Thank God.

I don't know if it was because of Charles that Khabib gave up, or because of his widowed mother, or because he believed he couldn't win without his father, or because the weight cut was becoming too much for him, or to protect his 0 in the professional, anyway. My only sadness is that he stopped with such a thin cartel. One of his victories in the UFC even had only three fights in the organization and lost all three. I would have preferred that he had had a tenth of the amateur/SAMBO fights he had and converted that into top notch professional fights. It will always be a "what if?". Similar to guys like Shaq and Ronaldinho, only in the case of these other two it was the lack of work ethic, in the case of Khabib it's a thin record.

Rickson punched a lot harder than the other Gracies. He could have won every one of his fights by GNP if he chose to do so.

It seems he liked to invest in both. But the few details we have of his fight against Anjo indicate a heavy gnp fight.

 

[Rationality]

No.


/thread

That was beautiful. #hespect

 

[LoClohs]

I was referring about old school Judo. That is 100% BJJ + throws.

Factually incorrect. Judo has always been Osaekomi wrestling. BJJ is Mount and/or Back Mount wrestling, and to be clear, in the case of BJJ it's getting those positions what you wrestle for, and not pinning the opponent in them.

Not to mention that it's dishonest to believe in certain things like the existence of leg locks in ancient judo, when Kano himself banned them.

Any relationship of Judokas with leg locks is due to contact with Jujutsu during the transition period from Jujutsu \ Grappling mix to Judo, or contact with CACC as is the case of Japanese Judokas in Brazil such as Maeda and Yano, and in other parts of the world such as Kawaishi.

I don't believe I've even read reports of Kano's line specifically using leg locks, just cases of Butoku Kai Jujutsukas doing. I believe Jujutsukas must have taught Kano's students as well at his request, I heard Tanabe did that, but again, any teaching of leg locks at Kano's request didn't last long as not only was Kano himself still alive when leg locks were banned but he was the responsible for it.

So it would be correct to say that leg locks were definitely part of Jujutsu and CACC, but not Judo.

Anyway, the Gracies had contact with CACC, learned from Judokas who trained CACC, and from at least one teacher who had CACC as a base, Dudu.

If the art they learned was striking, it would be the equivalent of learning Karate from Karatekas who knew Boxing, and learning from a Boxer as well. Claiming that BJJ is ancient Judo when added to Olympic Judo is the same as claiming that Dutch Kickboxing, which is (or can be, Overeem even described as such in a seminar that is on youtube) "Boxing with kicks", is "Old Karate" when added to Olympic Karate. Nonsense.

George talking about being a student of Dudu on the Journal ->

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram


George's camp before fight, Dudu was part of it ->

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram

No Gi training with CACC wrestler and Luta Livre iventor Tatu ->

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram

 

[mkt]

At the end of the day, strength and technique are going to be advantageous in any sport.

If other grappling arts are shown to be more effective than BJJ, then they will overtake BJJ in MMA in due time

Maybe, but BJJ has a huge edge because of the Gracies invovlement in the early UFCs. If someone from sambo or catch wrestling won the early UFCs (and their brother was heavily involved in promoting/matchmaking like Rorian), they would be the go-to grappling art instead. But now there's a strong network effect, just like using Microsoft Windows (whether it's really the best operating system or not). BJJ is very popular so the best grapplers are drawn to it and it's evolved a lot. But was it the best grappling system for NHB/MMA originally? We'll never know.

 

[MCS]

BJJ isn't a flawed art in MMA, but the stubbornness to refuse to evolve when your peers do has led to some Gracie's being ineffective. Opponent learns to defend your style, you need to then learn.

 

[Kertol]

BJJ in the 70s,80s and 90s was just watered down Judo. If you were to look into Kosen Judo during this time you’d see what they were doing at that time on the ground was much more advance than in BJJ.

It wasn’t until MMA and grappling tournaments started to get popular in which BJJ really transformed into what it is today

 

[jarj]

... a black belt in BJJ won the LHW belt via rear-naked choke.

I'm pretty sure Glover usually listed himself as a wrestler.

Regardless, a rear naked choke is something that even kids know how to do naturally. It doesn't take a black belt to know how to do one.

 

[LoClohs]

Maybe, but BJJ has a huge edge because of the Gracies invovlement in the early UFCs. If someone from sambo or catch wrestling won the early UFCs (and their brother was heavily involved in promoting/matchmaking like Rorian), they would be the go-to grappling art instead. But now there's a strong network effect, just like using Microsoft Windows (whether it's really the best operating system or not). BJJ is very popular so the best grapplers are drawn to it and it's evolved a lot. But was it the best grappling system for NHB/MMA originally? We'll never know.

But then what martial art would it be?

Sambo: The number of successful fighters so far is tiny and the time between them is huge. And you have guys from Sambo losing to BJJrs at the beginning, Renzo vs Oleg Taktarov. And despite the legend that is Fedor, there was no great production of athletes either by himself or by the art he represents.

CACC: Royce vs Shamrock, Rickson vs Funaki and Anjo etc. Sakuraba as well as Fedor didn't produce it himself nor did CACC.

Judo: It's a numbers game. Judo is not only the grappling martial art with the highest number of practitioners in the world, but it is (supposedly), the martial art with the highest number of practitioners in the world. And yet it fails to not only be MMA's main art of submissions, losing to BJJ, but also fails to be MMA's main takedown art, losing to its Olympic's sister art of wrestling. Why? I don't know, I just know it's not because the evil Gracies are magic marketers. Pride eclipsed the UFC pretty quickly as an MMA promotion. And, as you well know, Pride was a Japanese promotion, in Japan. Even so, not only was there a failure to make Judo prove to be a better product than BJJ, but also the Japanese CACC failed to do so, and to take revenge on Rickson for a reason already mentioned by me in the thread. And of course, there was the case of Renzo (again) defeating a representative of rival art, this fight taking place at the time of the first UFCs, in a promotion that was neither owned nor organized by the Gracies, and against an Olympic medalist.

Let's face it, BJJ has just proven itself to be a better product, over and over again.

All these other arts have their heros, just like BJJ has Royce. None of them have takem BJJs place. You know what happened tho? Wrestling fought its way to be the number one discipline to takedowns, even after lost to BJJ in the first UFCs. Not by whining, but by showing its worth in the octagon.

 

[LoClohs]

BJJ in the 70s,80s and 90s was just watered down Judo. If you were to look into Kosen Judo during this time you’d see what they were doing at that time on the ground was much more advance than in BJJ.

It wasn’t until MMA and grappling tournaments started to get popular in which BJJ really transformed into what it is today

No, since at least the Guanabara Federation, founded in 1967, BJJ is a Mount and / or Back Mount wrestling, rather than Osaekomi wrestling. So fundamentally different from Judo.

Not to mention that, as mentioned by me above, the Gracies faced Kosen judokas constantly. The brothers Ono and Takeo Yano. George has five wins against them, and only two losses, one of them, against Yano, achieved through points by throws while running away from the ground. Yano would later use the same tactic against Helio, even though they were competing in sub only.

Yano also grappled against Tatu Hatem 3 times, losing 2 No Gi by way of sub, rnc, and winning 1 in the Gi, by tiring Tatu with grip fighting before either sub him or throw him in a way that broke his arm.

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram

Looks like Yano did both, injured with a throw and then sub Tatu.

 

[LoClohs]

I'm pretty sure Glover usually listed himself as a wrestler.

Regardless, a rear naked choke is something that even kids know how to do naturally. It doesn't take a black belt to know how to do one.

Needing it or not, Teixeira is a BJJ black belt. And there is many things kids can do, including double legs and punching. Hardly an argument that any martial art is useless, or that professional MMA fighters are wasting their precious time and money on them out of sheer naivety.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Royce won, if I remember correctly, the first five UFCs, Renzo and Rickson won fights also, BTT is BJJ team, and Chute Boxe is Muay Thai (+ BJJ).

I believe you are factually incorrect.

You are correct about Royce and his accomplishments are huge. But in the first say, twenty UFCs, Royce is the only dominant BJJ fighter.

In fact, super early in the UFC history, the domination of wrestlers is evident. If you don't believe me just look at events one by one. The only submission artists that collectively and consistently overperformed are Lion Den's guys.

And no, I am sorry but I am not going to watch Vitor vs Wand and decide to see 2 BJJ guys, just no.

SOrry but as much as I respect BJJ as an art, the BJJ domination is a myth extrapolated from one fighter alone.