War Room OT Discussion v4

[Trotsky]

Agree that JTF is solid and GSM is terrible. Also that Oldshadow is the best of those four, though HS and BW have been on my ignore list for a while.

Of that four, I get the best impression of Hatestorm, but I honestly think it might be because, when I read that name before a post, my expectations immediately become that the post will be hateful and mean ala RIPWarrior, and then it comes off as light and topical as a result.

@Jack V Savage EDIT: Oh, and I forgot Exception. He's probably the single worst poster here, which makes his years-old account pretty impressive

 

[Trotsky]

The cold "because I say so" in E1
The sudden and not-at-all subtle dick swinging
Openly behaving domineering and sinister towards Skyler. c. E2
The "nothing stops this train, nothing" line c. E3
The illogical pettiness of getting rustled over hazard pay and implying murdering Mike c. E4
The openly trying to intimidate people and stare them down
The "say my name" bit
The not caring at all about the kid
The "I'm in the empire business"
The not be phased by literal mass murder

I understand the attempted narrative that he's drunk on power after shooting Jesse James, but they way, way over-forced it in an effort to expedite his "final transformation" and it just appeared stupid and inconsistent with the story line.

You throw on top of that the growing pretension of the directing style (having a cooking montage to some 1930s song every fucking episode, completely telegraphing visual innuendo), the stretched suspension of disbelief, and the formulaic box-checking of loose ends in the overall plot, and you get just a shit season. Like I said, the emergence of Mike as a new main character was the only redeeming thing about the season, as Banks just owned that character.

It also appears worse because it's in juxtaposition to the rest of the series being phenomenal, particularly immediately following S4, which was one of the greatest individual seasons in television history.

S4 > S2 >> S1 > S3 >>> S5

 

[Fawlty]

I must just not have enough interaction sample size. But I've recently made an effort to distinguish posters that I get confused (ShadowRun/oldshadow, Hatestorm/Bloodworth, LI/GearSM/JudoThrowFiasco, etc.) and was left the impression of JudoThrowFiasco >> LI >>> GSM

imo incoming

JudoThrows is one of the very few right wingers who always concedes points where he feels the right gets it wrong, who listens to evidence and reason, and who admits that most of his beliefs are based on self-interest rather than moral or policy superiority. I hate his views a lot but I really like him. LI is crazy but tries to be a good person sometimes. GSM is amoral as fuck and dumber than a slug on a shit-covered sandal.

 

[HereticBD]

The cold "because I say so" in E1
The sudden and not-at-all subtle dick swinging
Openly behaving domineering and sinister towards Skyler. c. E2

I don;t think this was anything new.

The "nothing stops this train, nothing" line c. E3
The illogical pettiness of getting rustled over hazard pay and implying murdering Mike c. E4

I'll give you Mike's death being shoehorned in there.

The openly trying to intimidate people and stare them down

He does this as early as Season 2.

"Stay out of my territory"

The "say my name" bit

Cartoonish. Never liked that scene.

The not caring at all about the kid
The "I'm in the empire business"
The not be phased by literal mass murder

I think this can all be boiled down to his evolution.

I understand the attempted narrative that he's drunk on power after shooting Jesse James, but they way, way over-forced it in an effort to expedite his "final transformation" and it just appeared stupid and inconsistent with the story line

I'd only disagree in how you feel that it was forced, or somehow didn't fit with the narrative. I mean,how else are you going to end this saga?.

It's like you're punishing the show for building to a climax. Seems a bit nitpicky.

You throw on top of that the growing pretension of the directing style (having a cooking montage to some 1930s song every fucking episode, completely telegraphing visual innuendo), the stretched suspension of disbelief, and the formulaic box-checking of loose ends in the overall plot, and you get just a shit season. Like I said, the emergence of Mike as a new main character was the only redeeming thing about the season, as Banks just owned that character.

It also appears worse because it's in juxtaposition to the rest of the series being phenomenal, particularly immediately following S4, which was one of the greatest individual seasons in television history.

S4 > S2 >> S1 > S3 >>> S5

Well, I won't get into the directorial style of it all. That's neither here nor there. The pretentious "Ending song" shit was there from the start. I honestly just don't see the shift like you do. I thought it was all pretty consistent. Suspension of disbelief? Shit man, the guy throws some crack bomb on the floor that hurts everyone but the main players, in season one. That was never a big deal to me.

S2>S4>S3>S5>S1

 

[Trotsky]

imo incoming

JudoThrows is one of the very few right wingers who always concedes points where he feels the right gets it wrong, who listens to evidence and reason, and who admits that most of his beliefs are based on self-interest rather than moral or policy superiority. I hate his views a lot but I really like him. LI is crazy but tries to be a good person sometimes. GSM is amoral as fuck and dumber than a slug on a shit-covered sandal.

I honestly don't have an opinion on JudoThrowFiasco and couldn't recall a single interaction. The only reason I mistakenly lump any of them together is their green name + graphic AV's. So, if I can't recall anything bad, I generally assume they are doing something right. GSM and Exception really represent the absolute floor on post quality here in terms of substance, intelligence, and honesty: even crazies like TCK are at least cordial and try to represent their horrible opinions earnestly.

The inability to concede points when one is wrong is by far the most aggravating thing in any discourse, whether one tries to dig in, deflect, or just resort to insults. At the very least, TCK-types don't do that. I, for instance, am much more likely than he is just to gut someone personally.

 

[Fawlty]

The cold "because I say so" in E1
The sudden and not-at-all subtle dick swinging
Openly behaving domineering and sinister towards Skyler. c. E2
The "nothing stops this train, nothing" line c. E3
The illogical pettiness of getting rustled over hazard pay and implying murdering Mike c. E4
The openly trying to intimidate people and stare them down
The "say my name" bit
The not caring at all about the kid
The "I'm in the empire business"
The not be phased by literal mass murder

I understand the attempted narrative that he's drunk on power after shooting Jesse James, but they way, way over-forced it in an effort to expedite his "final transformation" and it just appeared stupid and inconsistent with the story line.

You throw on top of that the growing pretension of the directing style (having a cooking montage to some 1930s song every fucking episode, completely telegraphing visual innuendo), the stretched suspension of disbelief, and the formulaic box-checking of loose ends in the overall plot, and you get just a shit season. Like I said, the emergence of Mike as a new main character was the only redeeming thing about the season, as Banks just owned that character.

It also appears worse because it's in juxtaposition to the rest of the series being phenomenal, particularly immediately following S4, which was one of the greatest individual seasons in television history.

S4 > S2 >> S1 > S3 >>> S5

I see your point better now and it makes sense. But I have a very different interpretation of the character. Walt is in a kind of power fugue, doing these things for reasons he doesn't understand. He's faking his way through the whole thing. He's doing an impersonation of a powerful Walt and gets nearly everything wrong, often acting over the top. It's showing why he could never be Elliott and could have never ended up with Gretchen, and that he's just a sociopath. He's not that powerful guy, he's a fuckup. Your idea seems closer to the intention of the show's creators though; that they just didn't finish the series convincingly and smoothly.

 

[Trotsky]

I'll give you Mike's death being shoehorned in there.

I've never heard that expression. I like it. Apt.

I did think that his death was actually well-done: the actual scene, that is. It was telegraphed that it was coming, but it was still a moving scene.

I'd only disagree in how you feel that it was forced, or somehow didn't fit with the narrative. I mean,how else are you going to end this saga?.

It's like you're punishing the show for building to a climax. Seems a bit nitpicky.

Well, it was always a gritty, at least minimally realistic show. If they had to finish up more quickly than proper resolution of the plot would ideally permit, maybe roll with the punches and take some heat by casual-types on the back end.

Suspension of disbelief? Shit man, the guy throws some crack bomb on the floor that hurts everyone but the main players, in season one. That was never a big deal to me.

The finale is really where I just sort of threw my hands up. It was just so silly, with the obvious box-checking, the untenable logistics of it all, etc. I mean, how does a scheming genius like Walt devise that final plan where, at best, it has like a 5% chance of success? I mean, a machine gun? You're just betting they'll let you park your car right adjacent to their building? That every one of them will be in that first-floor room and within the six-inch vertical spray of the gun? Come on, son, you're better than that.

Also, I was already frustrated at that point with the culture of reflexive praise in both viewers and critics. By S5, it was basically heresy to be critical of the show, because it was just sooo brilliant and people could delude themselves into thinking they were high-end art critics by being blindly deferential to the show's unquestioned brilliance.

It went from being ludicrously underrated S1-S2, to properly appreciated S3-S4, to praised religiously in S5.

S2>S4>S3>S5>S1

I like this. While I think S4 is objectively the most well-done season, S2 is by far the one I most enjoy and that I found to be the most moving: perfect mixture of grit, humor, lightness, and humanity. Phoenix is still probably my favorite episode.

 

[Trotsky]

I see your point better now and it makes sense. But I have a very different interpretation of the character. Walt is in a kind of power fugue, doing these things for reasons he doesn't understand. He's faking his way through the whole thing. He's doing an impersonation of a powerful Walt and gets nearly everything wrong, often acting over the top. It's showing why he could never be Elliott and could have never ended up with Gretchen, and that he's just a sociopath. He's not that powerful guy, he's a fuckup.

Yeah, I agree with your take for the most part, but I think the creators kind of made up this power vessel dynamic as they went (which is fine: by all means, let the art create itself) but that it wasn't intended from the get-go and it ended up shortchanging the final product. They certainly played up the character-appropriation aspect in S5.

I agree with, and would have preferred a more consistent rendering of, the "fuck up" type of character development, but he was clearly never meant to be a sociopath: a sociopath wouldn't have put himself in that career/life situation through the age of 50. Sociopaths don't do that: they do things like become governor of Missouri. It was supposed to be a moral devolution of a genuine, feeling person (which remains a very captivating internal character struggle through season 4) not a triggering of a dormant psychopath.

 

[Fawlty]

Yeah, I agree with your take for the most part, but I think the creators kind of made up this power vessel dynamic as they went (which is fine: by all means, let the art create itself) but that it wasn't intended from the get-go and it ended up shortchanging the final product. They certainly played up the character-appropriation aspect in S5.

I agree with, and would have preferred a more consistent rendering of, the "fuck up" type of character development, but he was clearly never meant to be a sociopath: a sociopath wouldn't have put himself in that career/life situation through the age of 50. Sociopaths don't do that: they do things like become governor of Missouri. It was supposed to be a moral devolution of a genuine, feeling person (which remains a very captivating internal character struggle through season 4) not a triggering of a dormant psychopath.

I will rewatch and try to pinpoint just where I thought this bolded part went off the rails. They did a great job with showing his first real step into the void when he kills the guy in the basement in the beginning. He acted first in self defense by gassing them, but then they put him in the worst kind of gray area where he is both defending himself and committing a cold blooded murder.

 

[HereticBD]

Well, it was always a gritty, at least minimally realistic show. If they had to finish up more quickly than proper resolution of the plot would ideally permit, maybe roll with the punches and take some heat by casual-types on the back end.

See, I don't think it was ever "realistic". Just presented in gritty way, that made people believe it was. I rolled with the punches from the start.

The finale is really where I just sort of threw my hands up. It was just so silly, with the obvious box-checking, the untenable logistics of it all, etc. I mean, how does a scheming genius like Walt devise that final plan where, at best, it has like a 5% chance of success? I mean, a machine gun? You're just betting they'll let you park your car right adjacent to their building? That every one of them will be in that first-floor room and within the six-inch vertical spray of the gun? Come on, son, you're better than that.

The machine gun never bothered me. The plan to get Jessie in the room, by antagonizing the head Nazi, was the part that I thought was a little too convenient.

Also, I was already frustrated at that point with the culture of reflexive praise in both viewers and critics. By S5, it was basically heresy to be critical of the show, because it was just sooo brilliant and people could delude themselves into thinking they were high-end art critics by being blindly deferential to the show's unquestioned brilliance.

It went from being ludicrously underrated S1-S2, to properly appreciated S3-S4, to praised religiously in S5.

Okay, but that's a bit of a hipster-ish stance to take, no? I like S1, but I wouldn't say it's "underrated" or "underappreciated". It fits where it is in the grand scheme of things. It's like some are annoyed that it became as popular as it did, and that's why S5 gets scrutinized as much as it has been. Like it's being judged negatively on it's popularity, more than anything.

 

[Trotsky]

See, I don't think it was ever "realistic". Just presented in gritty way, that made people believe it was. I rolled with the punches from the start.



The machine gun never bothered me. The plan to get Jessie in the room, by antagonizing the head Nazi, was the part that I thought was a little too convenient.



Okay, but that's a bit of a hipster-ish stance to take, no? I like S1, but I wouldn't say it's "underrated" or "underappreciated". It fits where it is in the grand scheme of things. It's like some are annoyed that it became as popular as it did, and that's why S5 gets scrutinized as much as it has been. Like it's being judged negatively on it's popularity, more than anything.

I don't see S5 being scrutinized really at all. It has like a 100% critical rating: even higher than S4. That's why it's so personally frustrating.

I only think it would be "hipster-ish" if the quality was consistent. I was perfectly comfortable with that burgeoning culture of critical pretension through S4, because the show was actually excellent and the few people complaining were the usual "wahhh, this is boring! get to the gun fights!" types.

I certainly was never angry that it got popular: I am really glad that it did, since it brought the actors and directors to fame and made for the still-excellent spin-off of Better Call Saul. But the popularity and critical success definitely, without a doubt in my mind, affected the creators and the final product. For guys like Cranston, Esposito, and Odenkirk, they were always supremely talented guys who finally got a chance to play iconic dramatic roles because of the popularity.

Btw, if you haven't been watching, BCS is great. The episode "Chicanery" from the recent season ranks up there with any Breaking Bad episode ever in terms of quality.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Breaking Bad is as far from realistic as you can get. But I guess all tv drama is, really.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

The Wire did a pretty good job though, until the fifth season. As a cop myself I would say it’s the most realistic police procedural series I’ve seen. Of course it’s still highly dramatized.

 

[HereticBD]

I don't see S5 being scrutinized really at all. It has like a 100% critical rating: even higher than S4. That's why it's so personally frustrating.

The irritation at it's praise is kinda hipster-ish...

Meh. Whatever.

Btw, if you haven't been watching, BCS is great. The episode "Chicanery" from the recent season ranks up there with any Breaking Bad episode ever in terms of quality.

Oh', I be watching BCS. Great show.

 

[HomerThompson]

Prazeres/Green is a good scrap.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Never watched more than an episode or two of Breaking Bad. Just not for me.

 

[Trotsky]

Never watched more than an episode or two of Breaking Bad. Just not for me.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

So.....

After years I finally got around to watching The Wire and finished it two nights ago. Is there any show that compares to it that is just as interesting to watch that might be on Netflix or Amazon Video?

Nothing compares to the wire. The scope. The social commentary. The great characters. Mt. Rushmore of television.

I know the bits I saw while my roommate was watching it I started feeling bad for Jesse in the later season clips I saw because of how Cranston's character was fucking with him and treating him like shit the whole time.

Breaking Bad is awesome in its own right. But the societal observations and messages of The Wire are more along the lines of being important while BB is fluff entertainment. As for Jesse, I didn't find him all that sympathetic by the time Walt started turning on him.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

That Valentina fight was brutal. Can't recall a women's fight before where I started getting that hint of squeamishness due to it being a girl getting mercilessly punished. But it was just a hint.

 

[HomerThompson]

That Valentina fight was brutal. Can't recall a women's fight before where I started getting that hint of squeamishness due to it being a girl getting mercilessly punished. But it was just a hint.

Yamasaki is an idiot.