War Room Lounge v63

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I think this is an important part of our disagreement. I don't really believe in "derailing". I think if two or more people are interested in having discourse, another person posting porn or whatever doesn't do anything to stop that. I can understand that it causes scrolling to take longer, but we have an ignore feature. I guess it can be a big issue for promoting the forum to new users though, so that's another reason I can see for Crave Media or whoever to be strict on that point.

Sorry, what does it mean to ''believe'' in derailing? It happens.

Of course, the first thing that I said was that moderated spaces are ''better.'' You initially proposed that I like them better because posts I disagree with wouldn't be present. This is false and I've shown this. There are other criteria by which I can (and do) judge a moderated space to be better or worse than manifest agreement.

Thanks for spelling that out, and I think my response above addresses it. Never heard of those two researchers either. I'll try to find time to check them out.

Make sure you have your careful thinking cap on when you do so.

I think it's just the issue from above: it causes readers to have to take much longer to scroll. The "ignore" feature makes this much less of a potential issue.

So, a practical concern unrelated to agreement or disagreement, yes? A consequential argument for the censorship of certain kinds of speech? That's all I really need in order to argue for moderation in distinct contrast to the raison d'etre you proposed for me at the beginning. If you can have it, I can have it.

I think my original statement was something like, "you want to ban some of the posters who post content with which you disagree". I think a broad construal of "disagree" gets you to aesthetic "disagreement", as you indicated yourself here. So what's the issue with what I wrote originally?

That the content of the post is not necessarily logically related to why I want it to be banned. In support of this point I proposed two things: some posts don't have content as such and they can be opposed, and even if I agreed with their content (or not) I could argue for them being banned. I've shown the two to be decoupled, there's nothing really left to argue.

As a further example, someone could post your real name, employer, home address and phone number. There would be nothing to agree with or disagree with in the post, and I would support whoever posted it being banned, despite the fact that we disagree about many things.

Meh. I think we are empirical beasts, and that's fine. No one in this thread is going to be calling out "racist posts" and also expressing explicit agreement with them.

That's not very careful.
 
68783332_3475920522421646_5305753729893400576_n.jpg
 
@Trotsky TDK is no longer the best Batman movie.


I didn't read much of it but as a fan of logic and recursion this caught my eye,
"I have never followed a rule. That is my rule. Do you follow? I don't." -- the Joker.
 
Kill them. Kill them all.
European wasps are an invasive pest here. No natural predators, and the lack of cold winters to seasonally wipe out most of the nest, means they've spread fast despite our efforts to eliminate them.
Maybe we could import European youtube weirdos to try and wipe them out... like we did with the cane toads.
They're getting really bad in all sorts of places because of climate warming. Just another one of those things people are gleefully ignoring along with climate change itself.

Edit: a bit of sauce
Massive wasp nests as big as a car are appearing in Alabama (again)

A normal yellow jacket nest can be in the ground or some type of cavity and peaks at 4,000 to 5,000 workers that don't survive the winter. The queens disperse and form new colonies in the spring.
But entomologists believe that milder winters and an abundant food supply allow the wasp colonies to survive and enter spring with larger numbers. The normal cues that cause the queens to disperse don't come -- so these super nests often have multiple queens.

Two perennial nests were already found in May, with indications of a third, Ray said. This is several weeks earlier than when the first giant nest was spotted on June 13 in 2006.
"If we are seeing them a month sooner than we did in 2006, I am very concerned that there will be a large number of them in the state," Ray said. "The nests I have seen this year already have more than 10,000 workers and are expanding rapidly."
If homeowners suspect a perennial nest is on their property, they should not touch it.
 
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Kill them. Kill them all.

Children's book "Biene Maja" ("Bee Maja") called them "a perfidious robber race without home or faith" a 100 years ago.

I hate wasps, but ticks are what makes me furious. I would allow development of bioweapons just to get rid of ticks.
 
Children's book "Biene Maja" ("Bee Maja") called them "a perfidious robber race without home or faith" a 100 years ago.

I hate wasps, but ticks are what makes me furious. I would allow development of bioweapons just to get rid of ticks.
You probably don't have to bother. Studies suggest environmental change will kill off the vast majority of insects within this century.
 
You probably don't have to bother. Studies suggest environmental change will kill off the vast majority of insects within this century.

Eradicating ticks (and probably mosquitos) would be satisfactory
 
You ever feel like The Police and Fugazi are two sides the same spectrum or am I just really. Really high
Not saying you aren't really really high, but I know very little about ska or reggae and even I noticed there was clearly a ska element to the music of the Police. Ska was big in the UK in the 80's and 90's and influenced "New Wave" music. It was imprinted all over the Police's tunes, imo.
IDK about cancerous as there are plenty of super rich people (or just rich in general) that do good shit with their money. Bill Gates is a great example and while he doesn't hold a candle in terms of money in his account look what Chris Long did the last 3 playing years with his contract. His game checks he all donated and lived off his endorsement stuff. JJ Watt and Gronkowski both haven't spent a dime of their contract money and look at all the shit at least Watt did personally to help Houston post hurricane.

I agree that when you get a large concentration that are all friends and shit it can get bad (Epstein being the prime example right now) but plenty of the super rich also do a lot of good for the world.
Gates is a special example, imo. I think he never forgot that he got rich fucking over other people so when he didn't need to play that game anymore he tried to give back. He stole CP/M and renamed it MS-DOS, he engaged in anti-competitive practices to the detriment of other companies, many not super rich already like Microsoft. And so on. But despite all that he is still no where near the miserable piece of shit Steve Jobs was so he gets a pass from me regardless.

All that having been said, I think the bad rich guys outnumber the good rich guys quite significantly and reigning them in can never be a bad thing, imo.
@Jack V Savage @deviake


If You're Looking for Evidence of WaPo Media Bias Against Bernie Sanders, Here It Is

https://www.commondreams.org/views/...GKVk0TyfVpVULO9kL1FFk112aOKKxEXmo3V00tcwCJOl0
I wasn't aware of his criticisms of the papers but in that light this is much more believable.
 
@Jack V Savage @deviake


If You're Looking for Evidence of WaPo Media Bias Against Bernie Sanders, Here It Is

https://www.commondreams.org/views/...GKVk0TyfVpVULO9kL1FFk112aOKKxEXmo3V00tcwCJOl0

Seems pretty weak, though. And I really dislike the approaches of 1) piling on individually weak claims to give the appearance of a strong one and 2) piling up cases to argue about averages. I feel very confident that someone sufficiently persistent could make an equally strong case that a major paper is biased against anyone or anything using those tactics.
 
You guys's relationship appears too toxic to get a resolution here. Let me intervene. I don't think the first paragraph is really relevant to anything FD was saying. Many European right-wingers are considered left by American standards because there are inequality-reducing elements of their economic systems that are too popular for them to try to cut or they've genuinely accepted those elements as being good. Since the spectrum relates to one's position on inequality and hierarchy, those positions are left--in some cases, to the left of the more left-leaning party in America.

I haven't seen Trump criticized for not being a TRUE right-winger, though I have seen him criticized for not being a true conservative, which is different. Conservatives philosophically believe in the received, unstated wisdom of society and are thus cautious about making large or fast changes in society. That doesn't describe Trump. The movement has been moving toward favoring increasing American hegemony and has at least pretended to support balanced budgets, which also doesn't describe Trump. It's also favored stronger moral leadership, which also doesn't describe Trump.

Monarchy is the original right-wing cause, and Nazism is a kind of form of that. Obviously, the Nazis weren't big on the idea that we're all equal. American rightism is moving in that direction--before Trump but he does represent another step. There's a sense on the right that ethnic/racial demographic trends are dooming the GOP in fair democratic elections, and thus we need less democracy and we need to try to slow or ideally reverse some of those trends. These are obviously right-wing positions.

I agree with your first paragraph insofar as that European politics in general has a much more collectivist approach in dealing with inequity through out society and their is a level of statism required to correct for that. Through all the fluff though, this is just a long-winded way of saying "more government". At it's core the European left-right paradigm is shifted heavily to the left no matter where one find themselves on it for this exact reason. Right wingers in europe correct for societal inequities (to the best of their ability) at the behest of government. This is absolutely antithetical to the individualistic, anti-statist approach prescribed by American Rightism (Classical Liberalism) that is rooted in Lockean and Smithian thought. In a nut shell, European right wingers are closer to American left wingers and that is common knowledge today. Again this is separated by two core principals.

Your second paragraph is rather misleading. There is no consistent philosophy between conservatives other than the fact that they don't like change. This is a tendency and not a philosophy. Change from what and to is wildly different depending on who you are asking. Simply put, conservatives want to maintain the status quo. There is no philosophy that they all ascribe to and this may seem like semantics but it's actually rather important to note because the status quo in europe at the time was wildly different than it was ( and still is) in America which is obviously my case. The division once more is rooted at it's core by statism vs anti-statism and collectivism vs individualism. At the time in europe the status quo was to maintain the monarchy while the revolutionaries where breaking away from that authority making them radically different for their time, today however, those radically different people are now called conservatives by modern our modern standards. Why? Because that is the status quo which they seek to maintain and anything unlike it is to the left. Which is limited government, a largely unfettered economy and individual rights and liberties under the constitution. Any form of a strong centralized authority or interference by government in any capacity is comfortably on the left by American standards.

It is undeniable that today, no matter where we are in the world, thie left-right paradigm is dictated by statism since the inception of America and it's not revisionist history to claim this. Actually it would be exclusionist to say it is because it denies the very history that the revolutionaries broke away from authority in the first place. The idea here is that the spectrum has absolutely been broadened since the inception of the American constitution. Left wingers will see it differently how ever and say that the paradigm is about "equality" which isn't incorrect historically because statism was never the defining factor between left or right nor was collectivism vs individualism. But by today's standards it is absolutely incorrect to do so. The dividing factor in the past was merely whom it applied to and how many people ruled. On the far left side you had Communists who where radical egalitarians viewing borders and culture as obstacles in the international struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeois classes while on the far right you had Nazis that basically thought the same except they only extended this equality to a small subset of the population and posted up borders. The level of statism is the same and the level of collectivism is the same with the minor distinction of who it applied to in Nazi Germany. This simply isn't the case in America and it would be odd to assert that Classical Liberalism is in any way shape or form like Nazism when they are diametrically opposed to one another.

Equality/Liberty and how you achieve it are different depending on who you are asking. To the philosophical underpinnings of American Rightism/Classical Liberalism, it is achieved though a constitution that is egalitarian in nature, that applies to every citizen but this does not correct for INEQUITY which to a left winger is an obstacle for true liberty. Right wingers care more for equal opportunity rather than equal outcome but this means nothing for the right-left paradigm because at the end of the day authoritarianism or collectivism of any sort stands in opposition to their individualistic approach to governance. A common trend for left wingers today is to talk about the inequity that an unfettered capitalist society brings about and this is done because it's easy for them to shoe in Nazism and Classical Liberalism into the same camp on the grounds that they are both inequitable when in reality communism and fascism have more in common with each other with the minor distinction of who the prescriptions apply to.
In europe far rightism is Nazism, in America It's anarcho-capitalism. Are they both inequitable? Yes. Do this make them the same? Absolutely not. To assert otherwise is a very odd. Typically this is where leftists bring out the multi dimensional/axis spectrums but this is because they want to be able to differentiate the political ideologies on the basis of inequity and not statism. Their very reputations rely on doing so and this is why we are lambasted in academia about the perils of capitalism on the basis of inequity. The political spectrum is much simpler than this of course.

Your last paragraph is interesting because you separate American conservatism from American rightism which is misleading since they are inseparable. You even fortify this by understanding the true right wing cause in europe as upholidng the monarchy which was conservatism in europe at the time and as a result right wing. You further reinforce this here "Monarchy is the original right-wing cause, and Nazism is a kind of form of that." The issue you are having is that you don't understand that Conservatism is relative and not constant nor static. As i said before the status quo in America is to maintain and uphold the prescriptions of classical liberalism which was a break away from the monarchy and authoritarian rule which preceded it in Europe (which was the status quo there). The more Trump increases American Hegemony, the closer he actually gets to the left and the further away he gets from American Conservatism/rightism. To deny this is to deny not only history but the definition of conservatism in the first place. Conservatism in europe to an American is Left no matter how you quantify the difference. So yes, on those grounds Trump has been criticized for not being a true AMERICAN conservative but not as a EUROPEAN conservative.

Now Monarchism (The rule of one) is decidedly left wing in America because it stands in opposition to their status quo. Whether or not you have heard about the criticisms of Trump not being a true right winger are irrelevant. A quick search on google can clear that up for you. The more "Dictator" like tendencies Trump shows, the further left he goes. How the American public votes is also irrelevant because no one is talking about them but rather the left-right paradigm which remains wholly intact no matter who is currently president or how anyone votes. Just because America hasn't voted in a communist president, it doesn't negate the existence of the ideology and the same applies for American rightism as an ideology and prescription to it's citizens. Trump pulling


TL/DR (for anyone who doesn't want to sift through this but wants in on the fun)
-The political spectrum is not defined by equality/inequity but collectivism vs individualism and statism vs collectivism
-Left = collectivism/statism, Right = individualism/Anti-statism to varying degrees.
-Historically Status quo in Europe(right wingers in europe) = upholding the monarchy, status quo in America = upholding Classic liberalism
-Trump Is closer to European conservatism as American Hegonomy increases.
-Conservatism is not a philosophy but is about maintaining the status quo which is relative to the time and place we live.​

Let me know if i missed anything. Looking forward to your response and having everyone flip shit in this thread. Be kind to my english it's my second language.
 
Seems pretty weak, though. And I really dislike the approaches of 1) piling on individually weak claims to give the appearance of a strong one and 2) piling up cases to argue about averages. I feel very confident that someone sufficiently persistent could make an equally strong case that a major paper is biased against anyone or anything using those tactics.

Could you make a case that any of those papers is biased in favour of Bernie, do you think?
 
I agree with your first paragraph insofar as that European politics in general has a much more collectivist approach in dealing with inequity through out society and their is a level of statism required to correct for that. Through all the fluff though, this is just a long-winded way of saying "more government". At it's core the European left-right paradigm is shifted heavily to the left no matter where one find themselves on it for this exact reason. Right wingers in europe correct for societal inequities (to the best of their ability) at the behest of government. This is absolutely antithetical to the individualistic, anti-statist approach prescribed by American Rightism (Classical Liberalism) that is rooted in Lockean and Smithian thought. In a nut shell, European right wingers are closer to American left wingers and that is common knowledge today. Again this is separated by two core principals.

Your second paragraph is rather misleading. There is no consistent philosophy between conservatives other than the fact that they don't like change. This is a tendency and not a philosophy. Change from what and to is wildly different depending on who you are asking. Simply put, conservatives want to maintain the status quo. There is no philosophy that they all ascribe to and this may seem like semantics but it's actually rather important to note because the status quo in europe at the time was wildly different than it was ( and still is) in America which is obviously my case. The division once more is rooted at it's core by statism vs anti-statism and collectivism vs individualism. At the time in europe the status quo was to maintain the monarchy while the revolutionaries where breaking away from that authority making them radically different for their time, today however, those radically different people are now called conservatives by modern our modern standards. Why? Because that is the status quo which they seek to maintain and anything unlike it is to the left. Which is limited government, a largely unfettered economy and individual rights and liberties under the constitution. Any form of a strong centralized authority or interference by government in any capacity is comfortably on the left by American standards.

It is undeniable that today, no matter where we are in the world, thie left-right paradigm is dictated by statism since the inception of America and it's not revisionist history to claim this. Actually it would be exclusionist to say it is because it denies the very history that the revolutionaries broke away from authority in the first place. The idea here is that the spectrum has absolutely been broadened since the inception of the American constitution. Left wingers will see it differently how ever and say that the paradigm is about "equality" which isn't incorrect historically because statism was never the defining factor between left or right nor was collectivism vs individualism. But by today's standards it is absolutely incorrect to do so. The dividing factor in the past was merely whom it applied to and how many people ruled. On the far left side you had Communists who where radical egalitarians viewing borders and culture as obstacles in the international struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeois classes while on the far right you had Nazis that basically thought the same except they only extended this equality to a small subset of the population and posted up borders. The level of statism is the same and the level of collectivism is the same with the minor distinction of who it applied to in Nazi Germany. This simply isn't the case in America and it would be odd to assert that Classical Liberalism is in any way shape or form like Nazism when they are diametrically opposed to one another.

Equality/Liberty and how you achieve it are different depending on who you are asking. To the philosophical underpinnings of American Rightism/Classical Liberalism, it is achieved though a constitution that is egalitarian in nature, that applies to every citizen but this does not correct for INEQUITY which to a left winger is an obstacle for true liberty. Right wingers care more for equal opportunity rather than equal outcome but this means nothing for the right-left paradigm because at the end of the day authoritarianism or collectivism of any sort stands in opposition to their individualistic approach to governance. A common trend for left wingers today is to talk about the inequity that an unfettered capitalist society brings about and this is done because it's easy for them to shoe in Nazism and Classical Liberalism into the same camp on the grounds that they are both inequitable when in reality communism and fascism have more in common with each other with the minor distinction of who the prescriptions apply to.
In europe far rightism is Nazism, in America It's anarcho-capitalism. Are they both inequitable? Yes. Do this make them the same? Absolutely not. To assert otherwise is a very odd. Typically this is where leftists bring out the multi dimensional/axis spectrums but this is because they want to be able to differentiate the political ideologies on the basis of inequity and not statism. Their very reputations rely on doing so and this is why we are lambasted in academia about the perils of capitalism on the basis of inequity. The political spectrum is much simpler than this of course.

Your last paragraph is interesting because you separate American conservatism from American rightism which is misleading since they are inseparable. You even fortify this by understanding the true right wing cause in europe as upholidng the monarchy which was conservatism in europe at the time and as a result right wing. You further reinforce this here "Monarchy is the original right-wing cause, and Nazism is a kind of form of that." The issue you are having is that you don't understand that Conservatism is relative and not constant nor static. As i said before the status quo in America is to maintain and uphold the prescriptions of classical liberalism which was a break away from the monarchy and authoritarian rule which preceded it in Europe (which was the status quo there). The more Trump increases American Hegemony, the closer he actually gets to the left and the further away he gets from American Conservatism/rightism. To deny this is to deny not only history but the definition of conservatism in the first place. Conservatism in europe to an American is Left no matter how you quantify the difference. So yes, on those grounds Trump has been criticized for not being a true AMERICAN conservative but not as a EUROPEAN conservative.

Now Monarchism (The rule of one) is decidedly left wing in America because it stands in opposition to their status quo. Whether or not you have heard about the criticisms of Trump not being a true right winger are irrelevant. A quick search on google can clear that up for you. The more "Dictator" like tendencies Trump shows, the further left he goes. How the American public votes is also irrelevant because no one is talking about them but rather the left-right paradigm which remains wholly intact no matter who is currently president or how anyone votes. Just because America hasn't voted in a communist president, it doesn't negate the existence of the ideology and the same applies for American rightism as an ideology and prescription to it's citizens. Trump pulling


TL/DR (for anyone who doesn't want to sift through this but wants in on the fun)
-The political spectrum is not defined by equality/inequity but collectivism vs individualism and statism vs collectivism
-Left = collectivism/statism, Right = individualism/Anti-statism to varying degrees.
-Historically Status quo in Europe(right wingers in europe) = upholding the monarchy, status quo in America = upholding Classic liberalism
-Trump Is closer to European conservatism as American Hegonomy increases.
-Conservatism is not a philosophy but is about maintaining the status quo which is relative to the time and place we live.​

Let me know if i missed anything. Looking forward to your response and having everyone flip shit in this thread. Be kind to my english it's my second language.
Tl;dr for the tl;dr:
He made up his own bullshit definitions for left and right
 
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