War Room Lounge v53: Short Notice

[Jack V Savage]

Like who? Cro Cop? Nog? Both of whom got their shit pushed in by homegrown UFC talent.

I guess Fedor squeaks out, because he avoided the UFC at all costs, but really who are the guys in this "deep" talent pool of the Pride HW's you're taking about?

Nog was clearly finished when he went to the UFC (you can just compare his 3rd Herring fight with the first two), but he still submitted the guy who was the UFC's best HW during his Pride run. The big four Pride HWs were clearly better than anyone in the UFC during that time, plus you had guys like Werdum, Kharitonov and Herring, who would have been in the mix for best UFC HW if they were there.

 

[Fawlty]

The technical term was "TUF noob".

It was pretty funny how having joined prior to the 1st season of TUF (mid 2005?) was THE badge of e-cred back then. If discussions got heated enough someone with the credentials would accuse others of being TUF noobs.

Also everyone, and I do mean every single poster, had watched MMA since the beginning, often with some elaborate tale that explained how a person that was younger than 8 in 1993 had watched the first events. Borrowed tapes from their uncle, watched some obscure rerun, etc etc.

I was legitimately in high school when I first saw UFC 2 and 3, whenever they hit Blockbuster. I want to say it was 1994 but maybe 95. The black market for UFC tapes was real tbh, it gave the liars plausible deniability. I started training with friends from theater, trying to figure out how to do the moves, but nobody could tap anybody out lol. I was the karate kid, and my friends knew wrestling and capoeira. We stopped after the school year though, and nobody in the area had a bjj or nhb school. Only got back into it after a long break, like 2002.

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

What is your current yellow for? I never see these things happen, somehow I always miss the threads where people are carded.

Have you ever been to the Somethingawful forums? They are really transparent about mod actions and have a page listing the reasons for each ban/suspension.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php

A lot better than the system here where shit just happens behind the scenes and you won't even know why unless the mod was generous enough to PM you about your violation. And then you can't even contest it. And if you're banned, you can't access it so you're left scratching your ass wondering what happened.

If a mod wants to throw down an infraction, should he not do it publicly and on the record?

 

[HereticBD]

Crocops best days were in the overlap with K1 and Pride ('99-'03) by far. The difference with the UFC at the time was the wrestling heavy approach and the way the cage and rule set supported that.

It's fair enough to say that the UFC was a different game with the cage. It doesn't lend credibility to the claim that Pride had the better talent. They had great talent under their rules.

You must excuse me for chuckling a bit at the "past their prime" excuse though. For some strange reason a lot of the Pride phenoms magically hit their primes the moment right before they signed with the UFC, and dropped right off afterwards.

 

[HereticBD]

Nog was clearly finished when he went to the UFC (you can just compare his 3rd Herring fight with the first two), but he still submitted the guy who was the UFC's best HW during his Pride run.

And got KO'd by another one, post motorcycle accident layoff.

The big four Pride HWs were clearly better than anyone in the UFC during that time, plus you had guys like Werdum, Kharitonov and Herring, who would have been in the mix for best UFC HW if they were there.

I'll give you Werdum. He was fairly consistently high level throughout his runs in both Pride and UFC. He's one of the very few though. Herring? Khartinov? On what merits? Herring wasn't even that elite in Pride. He just put on entertaining fights.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

So... NFL players think they can get a supervisor to get out of a traffic ticket?

Some people are so stupid.

 

[Ruprecht]

It's fair enough to say that the UFC was a different game with the cage. It doesn't lend credibility to the claim that Pride had the better talent. They had great talent under their rules.

You must excuse me for chuckling a bit at the "past their prime" excuse though. For some strange reason a lot of the Pride phenoms magically hit their primes the moment right before they signed with the UFC, and dropped right off afterwards.

Which Pride phenoms? Shogun?
That's a valid criticism of Shogun and maybe Overeem, but not CropCop, Hunt, Fedor, Jackson, Frye (who of course competed in both) or Wanderlei. If anything the extraordinary length of their careers through multiple organisations and rule sets adds credence to the reputation for talent.

 

[HereticBD]

Which Pride phenoms? Shogun?
That's a valid criticism of Shogun and maybe Overeem, but not CropCop, Hunt, Fedor, Frye (who of course competed in both) or Wanderlei. If anything the extraordinary length of their careers through multiple organisations and rule sets adds credence to the reputation for talent.

Hunt and Frye were never phenoms. They were notable journeymen more than anything, and Frye really isn't a Pride guy anyways.

Cro Cop was seen as a killer coming in. Nobody would ever think of calling him washed up until he got his head kicked in. I never saw Overeem as a big deal, TBH. He had his fair share of losses in Pride. However, he did get that hype. Like everyone else did. Rarely did a notable guy come from Pride, who wasn't given that treatment. Then they stunk it up and fell into the mix.

That's my main point. They were all treated like super elite MMA gods, and then when they lost, all the excuses started coming out, about their best days being behind them. I think the reality is closer related to Pride not being the Super Duper MMA Elite God Fighting League it was heralded as, and the UFC had just as good of talent, if not better.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I just realized someone should invent a belt that just releases once it detects a hand is no longer holding it or something. It would be a very niche market but you'd be saving lives. The flip side is it doesn't work once and you get sued big time which when you consider the potential lives saved vs. lost, its kinda BS.

I could be wrong about how it works though. Is the excitement from the risk they could die or just purely from being choked?

Can't wait to see you peddle the prototype on Shark Tank.

 

[Alphafail]

Which Pride phenoms? Shogun?
That's a valid criticism of Shogun and maybe Overeem, but not CropCop, Hunt, Fedor, Jackson, Frye (who of course competed in both) or Wanderlei. If anything the extraordinary length of their careers through multiple organisations and rule sets adds credence to the reputation for talent.

Let's not forget Shogun lost his most powerful weapons (his legs) after multiple surgeries.

 

[Lead]

Can't wait to see you peddle the prototype on Shark Tank.

I can start it by taking a deep breath and saying to myself “don’t choke”

 

[Gregolian]

I'd bet @Gregolian never has

Nah I’ve caught yellow aids before

 

[Limbo Pete]

Which Pride phenoms? Shogun?
That's a valid criticism of Shogun and maybe Overeem, but not CropCop, Hunt, Fedor, Jackson, Frye (who of course competed in both) or Wanderlei. If anything the extraordinary length of their careers through multiple organisations and rule sets adds credence to the reputation for talent.

Ol Hunto really had some incredible longevity given the length of his career, caliber of opponents, and fighting style.

 

[Jack V Savage]

And got KO'd by another one, post motorcycle accident layoff.

I'll give you Werdum. He was fairly consistently high level throughout his runs in both Pride and UFC. He's one of the very few though. Herring? Khartinov? On what merits? Herring wasn't even that elite in Pride. He just put on entertaining fights.

Nog losing to Mir is like Ray Robinson losing to Paul Pender.

Kharitonov beat Werdum and Arlovski (one of the two top UFC HWs from the time). Plus, you can watch him fight and see that he would have arguably been the best UFC HW if he were in the UFC.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Man, Scranton sucks. The Office wasn't even filmed here!

 

[Limbo Pete]

Hunt and Frye were never phenoms. They were notable journeymen more than anything

 

[Jack V Savage]

Hunt and Frye were never phenoms. They were notable journeymen more than anything, and Frye really isn't a Pride guy anyways.

Cro Cop was seen as a killer coming in. Nobody would ever think of calling him washed up until he got his head kicked in. I never saw Overeem as a big deal, TBH. He had his fair share of losses in Pride. However, he did get that hype. Like everyone else did. Rarely did a notable guy come from Pride, who wasn't given that treatment. Then they stunk it up and fell into the mix.

That's my main point. They were all treated like super elite MMA gods, and then when they lost, all the excuses started coming out, about their best days being behind them. I think the reality is closer related to Pride not being the Super Duper MMA Elite God Fighting League it was heralded as, and the UFC had just as good of talent, if not better.

The UFC had better sub-LHW talent, and some interesting talent at the top two divisions. Chuck was probably a legit top-5 LHW at his best, and Randy was in the mix for the top spot during his run in the division. Tito was probably a top-10 LHW. AA and Sylvia were in the mix for the HW top 5, and Mir at his best (post-merger) was arguably a legit top-10 HW.

 

[Limbo Pete]

On that note, time for my weekly re-watching of at least a couple Hunto fights. Sometimes I truly wonder if anyone out there (besides maybe Hassy) has rewatched more of them than I have.

 

[Ruprecht]

Hunt and Frye were never phenoms. They were notable journeymen more than anything, and Frye really isn't a Pride guy anyways.

Cro Cop was seen as a killer coming in. Nobody would ever think of calling him washed up until he got his head kicked in. I never saw Overeem as a big deal, TBH. He had his fair share of losses in Pride. However, he did get that hype. Like everyone else did. Rarely did a notable guy come from Pride, who wasn't given that treatment. Then they stunk it up and fell into the mix.

That's my main point. They were all treated like super elite MMA gods, and then when they lost, all the excuses started coming out, about their best days being behind them. I think the reality is closer related to Pride not being the Super Duper MMA Elite God Fighting League it was heralded as, and the UFC had just as good of talent, if not better.

You never defined "phenoms", so it seems like you're just hand waving and moving the posts. Same with "not really a Pride guy".
Would you really say that the UFC had a better talent pool at HW when it was Sylvia, Mir, Kerr (more success in UFC than Pride), Arlovski and Monson (also one fight in Pride), compared to Fedor, Crocop, Nog, Hunt, Coleman, Schilt, Barnett, Kharitonov, Vovchanchyn, Kerr, Randleman, Alex Emelianenko and Werdum (if you extend the peak a couple of years)? That seems ridiculous just looking at the careers and achievements.
Crocop's decline from his kickboxing days was clear, even though he was one of the best transitions to MMA.
Just look from his win against Hunt in K1 to his loss in Pride (not the fact that he lost, but the performance). After that his wins were against Sanchez, Minowa, Yoshida, Wandy and Barnett. Only Barnett would be upper tier (discounting Wandy for fighting above his weight).

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Only ever gotten a single yellow, and it was for calling Ben Henderson "kind of a douche".

LOL.

I got a single yellow from BAM for dismantling a guy who asked to be psychologized. I didn't even include the obligatory fo/ky.

I also got some weirdly aggressive PMs from Fogie once but I'm pretty sure he thought I was someone else.

Both instances were more amusing that irritating.