War Room Lounge v136: I Have No Mouth And I Must Ooof

[MMAisGod]

I think it would be pretty hard to come up with 10 WWE guys who were better than Michaels without seriously stretching. DK, Bret, Benoit, Eddie, Angle, and ...? I don't agree with all of those, and I think you could reasonably put HBK No. 1, but I'll give you all of those as being plausible. I'm sure I'm overlooking someone (I considered Owen and Misterio, but I don't think there's a case), but I don't see how he's out of the top 10.

I count WCW alongside WWE, since they integrated their wrestlers and will put the WCW wrestlers in the same polls (Sting/Goldberg/etc). I don't count outside wrestlers who have never touched the merger or company like Okada. With that being said, my list in somewhat of order would look something like-

1) Hogan
2) Austin
3) Rock
4) Cena (I cringe typing this)
5) Flair

6) Lesnar
7) Sting

-----
^ Line HBK can't cross

8-10) Savage/Bret/HBK/Bruno/HHH/Taker/Angle types can be argued here

When I think of the "best ever", I don't think or workrate in matches, that would be Benoit/Kurt/Eddie types, but it doesn't make them the best. It's an entertainment industry. I think of impact to the business + memorable matches + consistency. Which is why a guy like Hogan, who had meh at best wrestling match ability, is #1 due to being the driver of two separate wrestling boons, while having some of the most iconic matches in history. Probably should have clarified this earlier after typing it lol.

 

[Trotsky]

HBK's matches are overrated. The Taker matches, the HHH matches, good, but "GOAT matches" not even close. He has had some good matches against lesser guys, but definitely not against higher guys. Bret brings out the best matches in anything he touches. Bret had real classic purely amazing 10/10 wrestling matches with Bulldog, multiple with Owen (WMX, SummerSlam 94), Benoit, Austin, Mr. Perfect, Diesel in 95 (of all people), etc. Most of those dudes best match in their career was with Bret. The 1-2-3 Kid as an unknown local had the best match of his career, and probably the best match in RAW history against Bret. HBK can't make these statements without throwing in overrated spotfests like the Taker/HHH matches.



No, HBK was a known ratings killer. His "Childhood Dream" storyline during his first title run was a complete tank. Vince wanted to go with Vader in SS 96 due to him too, but HBK politicked his way into keeping the belt. Then he was repackaged as a way of fixing his fails (how bad are you that you have to be repackaged as the headliner). His loss and then re-win of the title in early 97 was supposed to gain him sympathy because Sid was so big/mean, but it didn't work, so Vince wanted to go back to Bret as the headliner at WM13. HBK threw a fit and refused to lose to Bret, so he faked an injury, "lost his smile", and forfeit the belt. Taker won it at WM13.

In late 97, he ran the DX gimmick and still wasn't a draw. This was blamed on WCW being at it's peak, but I don't buy this because with all their issues, if you look at the numbers for RAW weekly, after Austin won at WM14, TWO WEEKS LATER with Austin in the main event as champion they beat WCW for the first time in almost two years. This is the biggest tell imo.

Then there's HBK's return in '02. They treated it like the second coming of Jesus, yet again, he still wasn't a draw. So much so, that he won both the hardcore match at SS and the title at Survivor Series from HHH, and did such low ratings that Vince took the title from him a month later.

Etc. Could go on, but dude was never the guy WWE pretended he was. Bret was a big draw in the early 90s when headlining even though the WWE product kinda sucked, and drew nothing in WCW. But HBK was never a draw his entire career.

Bret Hart always reminded me of Tony Danza.

Anyways, I only watched wrestling 1998 through 2000. What are some GOAT matches from that period? Other than the cell. I don't think I get what makes a good match.

 

[Trotsky]

Hey, I recognize that reference!

Ken Shamrock was my favorite wrestler so I've seen all his shit. When he left WWF for UFC in 2000, I followed.

And there's my origin story.

 

[BarryDillon]

Fogie stepped down and had been thinking of it for awhile. The guy modded for over a decade and decided he’d be happier just posting going forward.

His PTSD must be pretty bad after a decade in the booth.

 

[Falsedawn]

His PTSD must be pretty bad after a decade in the booth.

Post Testacles Sad Dick?

M O D S = S A A B S
O
D
S
=
S
A
A
B
S

 

[Jack V Savage]

I count WCW alongside WWE, since they integrated their wrestlers and will put the WCW wrestlers in the same polls (Sting/Goldberg/etc). I don't count outside wrestlers who have never touched the merger or company like Okada. With that being said, my list in somewhat of order would look something like-

1) Hogan
2) Austin
3) Rock
4) Cena (I cringe typing this)
5) Flair

6) Lesnar
7) Sting

-----
^ Line HBK can't cross

8-10) Savage/Bret/HBK/Bruno/HHH/Taker/Angle types can be argued here

When I think of the "best ever", I don't think or workrate in matches, that would be Benoit/Kurt/Eddie types, but it doesn't make them the best. It's an entertainment industry. I think of impact to the business + memorable matches + consistency. Which is why a guy like Hogan, who had meh at best wrestling match ability, is #1 due to being the driver of two separate wrestling boons, while having some of the most iconic matches in history. Probably should have clarified this earlier after typing it lol.

OK. The way I see it, a good pro-wrestler is someone who makes good matches, and the other stuff is kind of a separate part of the game and more dependent on marketing. Like, I'd grant that Hogan connected with a bigger number of fans, though it helped that he was promoted as an unbeatable good guy in an era when kids were a bigger part of the audience, and his appearances were limited. People used to call Nash "Big Poochie" because of his influence on booking and Homer Simpson's suggestion that when Poochie wasn't onscreen, the other characters should be asking, "where's Poochie?." That works, apparently. But it's just a different way of looking at it. However, I think even from your perspective, HBK should be ahead of Sting.

 

[Lead]

His PTSD must be pretty bad after a decade in the booth.

Jokes aside, I definitely think time takes a toll and people are smart to eventually step down and just post again. We have enough people handling the WR that it hasn’t been that bad.

 

[Higus]

 

[MMAisGod]

You saw some of the best stuff then lol, that period was gold. Off the top of my head I can think of matchwise--

1998- Austin/Foley Over The Edge and at Unforgiven, Juventud/Mysterio on Thunder, Raven/DDP Raven's Rules match, HHH/Rock Summerslam, and of course Rock/Foley at Survivor Series and Taker/Foley HITC. Man, Foley had a good year lol.

1999- anything Austin/Rock that year, Austin/Taker First Blood match, Bret/Benoit on Nitro, Hardys vs Edge and Christian Ladder Match (forgot what PPV, but was epic) HHH/Austin later in the year

2000- Dudleys/Hardys/Edge and Christian Triple Threat ladder match at WM 2000 (GOAT Ladder match), HHH/Rock Iron Man match, 6-man match Armageddon (my personal favorite match ever), HHH/Foley Royal Rumble, HHH/Jericho Last Man Standing, Benoit/Jericho Summerslam, Benoit/Kurt/Jericho Wrestlemania, Angle/Rock No Mercy, Benoit/Jericho Submission match, etc. 2000 was a godlike year for good matches.

I know I probably forgot some, but these are all good and came to me typing it out.

 

[My Spot]

I count WCW alongside WWE, since they integrated their wrestlers and will put the WCW wrestlers in the same polls (Sting/Goldberg/etc). I don't count outside wrestlers who have never touched the merger or company like Okada. With that being said, my list in somewhat of order would look something like-

1) Hogan
2) Austin
3) Rock
4) Cena (I cringe typing this)
5) Flair

6) Lesnar
7) Sting

-----
^ Line HBK can't cross

8-10) Savage/Bret/HBK/Bruno/HHH/Taker/Angle types can be argued here

When I think of the "best ever", I don't think or workrate in matches, that would be Benoit/Kurt/Eddie types, but it doesn't make them the best. It's an entertainment industry. I think of impact to the business + memorable matches + consistency. Which is why a guy like Hogan, who had meh at best wrestling match ability, is #1 due to being the driver of two separate wrestling boons, while having some of the most iconic matches in history. Probably should have clarified this earlier after typing it lol.

You shouldn’t cringe putting Cena that high. He was the top guy for damn near a decade and sold a shitload of merchandise.
It’s hard to rank Austin. His peak was even higher than 80s Hogan but it was so short. And his heel turn was disastrous for business.

 

[MMAisGod]

OK. The way I see it, a good pro-wrestler is someone who makes good matches, and the other stuff is kind of a separate part of the game and more dependent on marketing. Like, I'd grant that Hogan connected with a bigger number of fans, though it helped that he was promoted as an unbeatable good guy in an era when kids were a bigger part of the audience, and his appearances were limited. People used to call Nash "Big Poochie" because of his influence on booking and Homer Simpson's suggestion that when Poochie wasn't onscreen, the other characters should be asking, "where's Poochie?." That works, apparently. But it's just a different way of looking at it. However, I think even from your perspective, HBK should be ahead of Sting.

Big Poochie hahaha.

It's a bit a both imo. For example, you can be a GOAT wrestler (think Dean Malenko or Lance Storm), but if people aren't buying tickets to watch you, or your segments are low rated, then you're lacking as a performer. Compared with a guy like Hogan who had a limited moveset, but is the all-time box office attraction, and led WWE to their second highest boon ever, and WCW to their highest ever with a near 2 year win streak. Hogan got a huge push indeed, but he had the charisma to back it up, and followed it with a number of iconic matches. Hogan had an 8 minute ovation where he literally just stood in the ring doing nothing while people applauded and cheered lol. That can't be replaced.

Do you remember the "Lex Express" after Hogan left? They pushed it to the moon and it failed so hard it's still to this day a punchline. In more recent times they've tried to push Roman Reigns for years as the face of the company which has flopped immensely. Having that "it factor" is a large part of the wrestling industry, more even than the actual matches themselves. I understand your evaluation now better though. Your top 10 would likely consist of guys like Angle, Benoit, Flair, Savage, HBK, Bret, and Eddie. Great wrestlers who could also entertain as both heels or faces.

 

[My Spot]

You saw some of the best stuff then lol, that period was gold. Off the top of my head I can think of matchwise--

1998- Austin/Foley Over The Edge and at Unforgiven, Juventud/Mysterio on Thunder, Raven/DDP Raven's Rules match, HHH/Rock Summerslam, and of course Rock/Foley at Survivor Series and Taker/Foley HITC. Man, Foley had a good year lol.

1999- anything Austin/Rock that year, Austin/Taker First Blood match, Bret/Benoit on Nitro, Hardys vs Edge and Christian Ladder Match (forgot what PPV, but was epic) HHH/Austin later in the year

2000- Dudleys/Hardys/Edge and Christian Triple Threat ladder match at WM 2000 (GOAT Ladder match), HHH/Rock Iron Man match, 6-man match Armageddon (my personal favorite match ever), HHH/Foley Royal Rumble, HHH/Jericho Last Man Standing, Benoit/Jericho Summerslam, Benoit/Kurt/Jericho Wrestlemania, Angle/Rock No Mercy, Benoit/Jericho Submission match, etc. 2000 was a godlike year for good matches.

I know I probably forgot some, but these are all good and came to me typing it out.

2000 was probably their best year ever even though WM was dogshit.

 

[Sycho Sid]

So my grandma, who has been a hardcore conservative for years, has turned democrat because of the way Trump and Republicans have handled the Corona Virus, and their lack of concern for the elderly.

My father on the other hand does not give a shit about Corona virus, and has decided that the BLM protests are about spreading communism to the country.

 

[curryjunkie]

my favourite line " are you insane" also "i am not a sex slave" jesus fuckin christ youll get rid of the virus by 2030 at this rate..

 

[MMAisGod]

You saw some of the best stuff then lol, that period was gold. Off the top of my head I can think of matchwise--

1998- Austin/Foley Over The Edge and at Unforgiven, Juventud/Mysterio on Thunder, Raven/DDP Raven's Rules match, HHH/Rock Summerslam, and of course Rock/Foley at Survivor Series and Taker/Foley HITC. Man, Foley had a good year lol.

1999- anything Austin/Rock that year, Austin/Taker First Blood match, Bret/Benoit on Nitro, Hardys vs Edge and Christian Ladder Match (forgot what PPV, but was epic) HHH/Austin later in the year

2000- Dudleys/Hardys/Edge and Christian Triple Threat ladder match at WM 2000 (GOAT Ladder match), HHH/Rock Iron Man match, 6-man match Armageddon (my personal favorite match ever), HHH/Foley Royal Rumble, HHH/Jericho Last Man Standing, Benoit/Jericho Summerslam, Benoit/Kurt/Jericho Wrestlemania, Angle/Rock No Mercy, Benoit/Jericho Submission match, etc. 2000 was a godlike year for good matches.

I know I probably forgot some, but these are all good and came to me typing it out.

@Trotsky dunno why my quote didn't go through lol but that was my reply.

You shouldn’t cringe putting Cena that high. He was the top guy for damn near a decade and sold a shitload of merchandise.
It’s hard to rank Austin. His peak was even higher than 80s Hogan but it was so short. And his heel turn was disastrous for business.

It's, Cena though lol. I hated him at one point more than I ever hated a wrestler. The 5 moves of doom, the never ending burials. Over time I've grown to accept his place though. I can see Rock/Cena above Austin with that argument, but 4th is probably the lowest. Being the leader in the biggest wrestling boon of all time, right after the last guy (lolz HBK) was stinking up the ratings is next level great. Had he had a longer run on top he'd be #1 without question, but the short shelf life + face-only success limits it.

2000 was probably their best year ever even though WM was dogshit.

2000 I think was the best wrestling year match-wise for sure. There was an overflow of talent, of guys with immense wrestling skill, who were getting the top billings. Doesn't get better than that.

 

[curryjunkie]

So my grandma, who has been a hardcore conservative for years, has turned democrat because of the way Trump and Republicans have handled the Corona Virus, and their lack of concern for the elderly.

My father on the other hand does not give a shit about Corona virus, and has decided that the BLM protests are about spreading communism to the country.

i explained to my ma that she was at a higher risk because of her age, and that the tories neglect, mismanagement, and general disdain for ordinary people made them dangerous, especially during this pandemic, she replied " well at least he's better than corbyn" the guy who doesnt want old folks to die ....you just cant reason with someone who has already made up their mind on a subject...

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

My wrestling knowledge goes from about 82 to 87 , Jimmy superfly snuka , Roddy Piper , the British bulldogs, the road warriors , Brutus Beefcake , Andre the Giant, Jake the snake , hacksaw Jim Duggan ,the Iron Sheikh etc

And who could forget leaping Lanny poffo aka the poet laureate of the WWE

The golden days

 

[Joe]

So my grandma, who has been a hardcore conservative for years, has turned democrat because of the way Trump and Republicans have handled the Corona Virus, and their lack of concern for the elderly.

My father on the other hand does not give a shit about Corona virus, and has decided that the BLM protests are about spreading communism to the country.

This oddly enough confirms the polling

 

[Trotsky]

So my grandma, who has been a hardcore conservative for years, has turned democrat because of the way Trump and Republicans have handled the Corona Virus, and their lack of concern for the elderly.

My father on the other hand does not give a shit about Corona virus, and has decided that the BLM protests are about spreading communism to the country.

Have you considered sitting down with your father and having a heart-to-heart with him about what a moron he is and how it's embarrassing?

 

[BarryDillon]

Disagree about Bret having better matches than either of the HBK/RR ladder matches, though Bret vs. Owen at WMX was close. And, no, Hall was not close to being "wonderful." What was his best match with someone who wasn't much better than him carrying him?



I think it would be pretty hard to come up with 10 WWE guys who were better than Michaels without seriously stretching. DK, Bret, Benoit, Eddie, Angle, and ...? I don't agree with all of those, and I think you could reasonably put HBK No. 1, but I'll give you all of those as being plausible. I'm sure I'm overlooking someone (I considered Owen and Misterio, but I don't think there's a case), but I don't see how he's out of the top 10.

DK?