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War Room Lounge v132: Jack used rhetoric. It’s not very effective...

Which Simpsons character would you like to be for a day?

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The Diplomat said:
Just gonna reply to this earlier post because from since I was a kid I always considered myself a Jeffersonian democrat. He was for the people. Man literally wrote the Declaration of Independence, and other than Benji Franklin, he was the smartest man in the room. Now people are going to shit on him, and I'm taking major issue with that, because I understand nuance and context, historical relevance and how Jefferson actually felt at the time. He truly wanted to end slavery in a time when it was impossible, and still felt burdened until his death that he would leave that issue for future generations of Americans.

But no, he racist, take statue down.
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I don’t know much about the mn’s personal life re slavery other than he was a slave owner and fathered a shitload of children with his slaves. Probably not a good guy. But I think we have to draw a line somewhere (civil war would be my call). Otherwise we will wind up renaming the planet and the only monuments will be to fictional people.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
I don’t know much about the mn’s personal life re slavery other than he was a slave owner and fathered a shitload of children with his slaves. Probably not a good guy. But I think we have to draw a line somewhere (civil war would be my call). Otherwise we will wind up renaming the planet and the only monuments will be to fictional people.
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There is always the theory of Sally Hemings being his last slave and pseudo-wife before he got too old to do anything. It's documented that he freed his slaves before his death (possibly her and his children). Most DNA studies go back to her.
 
The Diplomat said:
It's documented that he freed his slaves before his death (possibly her and his children).
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You stooped lower than your previous single-sentence replies by just proudly declaring things that are objectively untrue.

In his will, Jefferson freed three older men who had been forced to work for him for decades.[11] In 1827, the remaining 130 people who had been kept as slaves at Monticello were sold to pay the debts of Jefferson's estate.[12][13][14]

After Jefferson’s death in 1826, the families of Jefferson’s most devoted servants were split apart. Onto the auction block went Caroline Hughes, the 9-year-old daughter of Jefferson’s gardener Wormley Hughes. One family was divided up among eight different buyers, another family among seven buyers.

Joseph Fossett, a Monticello blacksmith, was among the handful of slaves freed in Jefferson’s will, but Jefferson left Fossett’s family enslaved. In the six months between Jefferson’s death and the auction of his property, Fossett tried to strike bargains with families in Charlottesville to purchase his wife and six of his seven children. His oldest child (born, ironically, in the White House itself) had already been given to Jefferson’s grandson. Fossett found sympathetic buyers for his wife, his son Peter and two other children, but he watched the auction of three young daughters to different buyers. One of them, 17-year-old Patsy, immediately escaped from her new master, a University of Virginia official.

Joseph Fossett spent ten years at his anvil and forge earning the money to buy back his wife and children. By the late 1830s he had cash in hand to reclaim Peter, then about 21, but the owner reneged on the deal. Compelled to leave Peter in slavery and having lost three daughters, Joseph and Edith Fossett departed Charlottesville for Ohio around 1840. Years later, speaking as a free man in Ohio in 1898, Peter, who was 83, would recount that he had never forgotten the moment when he was “put up on the auction block and sold like a horse.”
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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/

And, @Anung Un Rama, you can read that Smithsonian article as evidence why we can judge pre-Civil War persons on a relative basis, as the article makes the clear case that Washington was a man of conviction and principle, and Jefferson was a self-interested charlatan.

The Diplomat said:
Yeah *stretches* just gonna chalk up another victory over @BarryDillon and @Trotsky. Maybe @Kafir-kun but that could be pending. *yawns*
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Okay, go have fun being smart somewhere.
 
Trotsky said:
You stooped lower than your previous single-sentence replies by just proudly declaring things that are objectively untrue.

In his will, Jefferson freed three older men who had been forced to work for him for decades.[11] In 1827, the remaining 130 people who had been kept as slaves at Monticello were sold to pay the debts of Jefferson's estate.[12][13][14]


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/

And, @Anung Un Rama, you can read that Smithsonian article as evidence why we can judge pre-Civil War persons on a relative basis, as the article makes the clear case that Washington was a man of conviction and principle, and Jefferson was a self-interested charlatan.



Okay, go have fun being smart somewhere.
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Ignored everything but that THEORY I said was a THEORY. Great intellectual post, comrade. Good to know I have your number.

Just gonna paste what I told my girlfriend just now:

I'm here stuck in the viking age, reading the books of Ragnar Lodbrok and his Sons, in the 800s/900s, about people literally exploring seas just to rape and pillage other innocents

and these motherfuckers wanna bitch about George Washington lol
 
Just watched “Judy” (no romo). Meh movie, I could care less about JD, but shit Renee zelwigger can fucking act.
 
Trotsky said:
You stooped lower than your previous single-sentence replies by just proudly declaring things that are objectively untrue.

In his will, Jefferson freed three older men who had been forced to work for him for decades.[11] In 1827, the remaining 130 people who had been kept as slaves at Monticello were sold to pay the debts of Jefferson's estate.[12][13][14]


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/

And, @Anung Un Rama, you can read that Smithsonian article as evidence why we can judge pre-Civil War persons on a relative basis, as the article makes the clear case that Washington was a man of conviction and principle, and Jefferson was a self-interested charlatan.



Okay, go have fun being smart somewhere.
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George was a major slave owner. I think it’s extreme and impractical to start cancelling everything from the founding of the country (or why even stop there?).
 
Anung Un Rama said:
George was a major slave owner. I think it’s extreme and impractical to start cancelling everything from the founding of the country (or why even stop there?).
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Nah, man. 2020 lenses for 2010, 1910, and 1710. Everyone in human history that wasn't completely fighting against the grain was a huge piece of shit, regardless of what they actually did.

However, I am still holding out for John Adams being the new favorite founding father. *fingers crossed*
 
Anung Un Rama said:
George was a major slave owner. I think it’s extreme and impractical to start cancelling everything from the founding of the country (or why even stop there?).
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So...you didn't read the link?

I don't know what you mean by "canceling," but I don't think nationalist hero worship should outweigh reasonable historical appraisals. Jackson and Jefferson were pieces of shit beyond the level of their contemporaries. Saying that doesn't mean we have to deny the founding of the country.
 
AgonyandIrony said:
THE SHITPOSTERIAT WILL RISE AGAINST YOU

Same. Quitting drinking has been rough lol.
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Why you quitting? Health reasons? New outlook on life? Costs?

I drink way too much and have been trying to cut back lately as well. I've gone off hard liquor to just beer for now.
 
Trotsky said:
Jefferson were pieces of shit beyond the level of their contemporaries. Saying that doesn't mean we have to deny the founding of the country.
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Yeah, this is all I needed to read to understand your level of thinking.

Nobody is saying they were without fault. Historical books for school children acknowledge this, while also acknowledging what they did for this nation.

But to say Jefferson was a piece of shit? BEYOND his contemporaries? Wow. Jackson, I get, being partially cherokee, but Jefferson? Oh fuck off, commie.
 
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