War is Religion

I was a Christian for 20yrs. I'm still a follower of the Messiah but had to abandon religion. When I look at Christian history this is what I see: Crusades, Inquisitions, Colonization, & Slavery. When I look at Christian nations today I see a whole lot of war.

Im not judging & condemning every Christian. But if were going to judge Christianity the way we do Islam on what basis can you claim moral superiority?
Thats Catholic Church history. The state took the religion, used it as a means of control, and conquered with it.


The Catholic Church isn't real christianity, its state christianity.

True Christianity adhered to the teaching of Christ.

Compare his lifestyle and ideology to that of the crusaders and you'll see they aren't the same religion whatsoever
 
Thats Catholic Church history. The state took the religion, used it as a means of control, and conquered with it.


The Catholic Church isn't real christianity, its state christianity.

True Christianity adhered to the teaching of Christ.

Compare his lifestyle and ideology to that of the crusaders and you'll see they aren't the same religion whatsoever

Ok, I pretty much agree. I would just argue that 'real' Christianity is Catholicism. Christ didnt teach 'real Christianity' he simply taught the truth. And truth isn't a religion or world system. The religion of Christianity was created by Constantine and the Roman govt. But thats semantics I suppose.
 
We need a classical Ottoman empire which was reasonably tolerant of minorities and which rendered all the land and ethnic disputes irrelevant since the entire empire was the Sultan’s personal property.

The Turks turned into dog shit when they tried to emulate the European model of a nation state.
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The difference is that Christianity, within its texts, always had the justification for living under secular or non-Christian rule and had an overwhelming focus on being passive and peaceful.

Christians may have set up their own religious kingdoms and murdered the infidels, but it’s not exactly what Jesus was preaching.
In the Islamic world there was in practice a rough separation of religion and state. Not in the modern Western sense of course. Rather most functions that we associate with Shari'a were carried out by networks of scholars and mosques that were primarily organized from the bottom up and rooted in their local communities. Shari'a courts were not like modern day criminal or civil courts which are run by the centralized state, they are more like private arbitration courts and in practice often arbiters of last resort as more often than not people could find a private arbiter from the community itself.

There's even an old saying in the Islamic world
The best sultan is he who sits and stands with the scholars. The worst scholar is he who sits and stands with the sultans.
It was considered distasteful for scholars to try and interest themselves in top down state politics.

Of course that too is oversimplifying it as there was still the post of Shaykh al Islam, appointed by the sultan, which did carry immense prestige. It wasn't like being a Supreme Court Justice, their decisions were merely guidelines other scholars and jurists could choose to follow or not, and to reach that post you were often part of some scholarly family that intermarried with dynastic elites. But still it had prestige and influence, its just more so through moral authority than than coercive force. And of course many religious/charitable institutions were funded by wealthy actors within the state out of their own pockets so how you view that through the modern lens of separation of church and state is not easy.

Even if you go back to the beginning the so called state in Medina was not that sophisticated even by premodern standards. As far as I know there was no professional bureaucracy or standing army which other premodern states such as the Roman and Achaemenid Empires did have. If you want to use modern terms it was really an intentional community with really high levels of civic engagement, not a bureaucratic coercive state like modern so called Islamic states or even what you see in some ancient premodern states like in ancient Egypt.

I think if Muslims want to apply Shari'a in the modern world it should be through civil society and the private sector, not the state. Apply Shari'a through private arbitration courts, encourage people to make business contracts in accordance with Shari'a when possible, expand access to private religious education, and of course manage and expand the social welfare networks instead of entrusting it to the bloated and corrupt bureaucracies of the state.

If you want to influence politics, don't make political parties but rather just stick to opposition politics. Pressure the state in that way and focus on issues where there is broad public support like repealing emergency laws or austerity measures or passing and repealing laws such that the aforementioned private/civil society functions are made easier.
 
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@Diogenes of Sinope

If not for the Catholic church, Christianity would not exist today.

It's very easy to critique the crusades, however, lest we forget, it served an important purpose in saving not only Christianity but western civilization.
 
please shut the fuck up. It is the hardcore ATHEISTS that murders on a scale unheard of such as over 20 million in soviet union, over 60 million in maoist china.

Atheists are more likely to be serial killers and every other variety of shitbag.

Religion account for 5% of wars and LESS than 5% of death from wars. Instead of talking out of your ass do some fucking research.

Killing in the name of religion. It's a real thing. You can read about it.
 
@Diogenes of Sinope

If not for the Catholic church, Christianity would not exist today.

It's very easy to critique the crusades, however, lest we forget, it served an important purpose in saving not only Christianity but western civilization.
Christianity would exist today, it wouldn't be as prevalent of a religion, but would exist
 
Thats Catholic Church history. The state took the religion, used it as a means of control, and conquered with it.


The Catholic Church isn't real christianity, its state christianity.

True Christianity adhered to the teaching of Christ.

Compare his lifestyle and ideology to that of the crusaders and you'll see they aren't the same religion whatsoever



that's not quite accurate-- using that criteria no one would really be considered christian. the fact is if humanity ever does come to a place to be like Christ is will be a long time from now.
 
@TheComebackKid

Civilization that arose from Greek philosophy.

That includes Christianity which was originally articulated thru Greek language and ideas i.e. The Logos.
 
Evangelists, Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, Calvinists, and any other denomination one could name would not exist without Catholicism. They are all branches off the catholic tree.

Theres not one Christian denomination that represents the teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ did not preach a Christian religion. Christ taught "the way", thats it. He wasn't a Christian and neither was Paul, Peter or anyone else.

The religion of Christianity was created by Constantine and the Roman government. They amalgamated the teachings of Christ with Roman Mythology to produce Catholicism. All Christian denominations that have come since are just different forms of Catholicism.

Christians like to try and separate 'real' Christianity from Catholicism but you just can't do it. Theyre one in the same.
 
I was a Christian for 20yrs. I'm still a follower of the Messiah but had to abandon religion. When I look at Christian history this is what I see: Crusades, Inquisitions, Colonization, & Slavery. When I look at Christian nations today I see a whole lot of war.

Im not judging & condemning every Christian. But if were going to judge Christianity the way we do Islam on what basis can you claim moral superiority?

What about the countless good things religion has brought including and not limited to schools, hospitals, art, music, literature, architecture, philosophy, community, charity, saints and so on. If there is something good about society today chances are religion has had a direct on indirect influence on it. Religions have their issues and they will certainly not bring an earthly utopia, but the world will be far worse off without religion.
 
War is politics.

Religion is a way to organize and manipulate people into behaving how you want. These days, western nations have put barriers between government and religion because of the danger inherit, this is less true in the Muslim world.
 
Is this a joke?

You are wrong all around.

Atheism isnt an ideology that encouragea killing. Where as many religions do.

You are trying to use facts and reason in a dialogue with a theist reactionary. You may as well spend the time digging a hole to Beijing.
 
Evangelists, Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, Calvinists, and any other denomination one could name would not exist without Catholicism. They are all branches off the catholic tree.

Theres not one Christian denomination that represents the teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ did not preach a Christian religion. Christ taught "the way", thats it. He wasn't a Christian and neither was Paul, Peter or anyone else.

The religion of Christianity was created by Constantine and the Roman government. They amalgamated the teachings of Christ with Roman Mythology to produce Catholicism. All Christian denominations that have come since are just different forms of Catholicism.

Christians like to try and separate 'real' Christianity from Catholicism but you just can't do it. Theyre one in the same.

you are so special in every way. extra special. i wonder if you feel a hum just being you knowing more than the saints and more than expert scientists. it must be pretty amazing.
 
What about the countless good things religion has brought including and not limited to schools, hospitals, art, music, literature, architecture, philosophy, community, charity, saints and so on. If there is something good about society today chances are religion has had a direct on indirect influence on it. Religions have their issues and they will certainly not bring an earthly utopia, but the world will be far worse off without religion.


all hail comeback kid. his time is coming any day now.

 
You are trying to use facts and reason in a dialogue with a theist reactionary. You may as well spend the time digging a hole to Beijing.

The biggest reactionaries on the earth are liberals and conservatives. You guys literally do nothing but sit around everyday reacting to whatever the media tells you to. And then when you guys react its nothing but cheap talking points being thrown back and forth. Just the same ones repeated over and over...for years.

Media: Orange man bad

Liberals: take that bunker boy!

Conservatives: Leftists are crazy. Murica!

And around and around you go like bunch of dumb idiot puppets on a string. You guys are not any different lol.
 
you are so special in every way. extra special. i wonder if you feel a hum just being you knowing more than the saints and more than expert scientists. it must be pretty amazing.

Don't be jelly. The Most High has given me revelation. Humble yourself and you too could know more than the so called saints and so called scientists.
 
The biggest reactionaries on the earth are liberals and conservatives. You guys literally do nothing but sit around everyday reacting to whatever the media tells you to. And then when you guys react its nothing but cheap talking points being thrown back and forth. Just the same ones repeated over and over...for years.

Media: Orange man bad

Liberals: take that bunker boy!

Conservatives: Leftists are crazy. Murica!

And around and around you go like bunch of dumb idiot puppets on a string. You guys are not any different lol.

I'm not interested in the opinion of a guy who has invested 13 years of his life trolling a karate sub forum. No offense. :D
 
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