War is Religion

[Islam Imamate]

Human\Individual rights aren't there for the majority, they never were. Why can't you have autonomy for the Kurds and homo rights?

Not impossible but most of these places are still pretty socially conservative and much more so at the time the Sultanate was dissolved.

Anyway I don't think this conversation is really going anywhere since I made my point more than once and you don't really seem to have an argument against it as much as you just want to express your distaste with it. Cheers.

If the parallels are there then they will be noticed. You're either allowed to think for yourself and make your own choices or not. The reasons why mechanisms are in olace matter less than the fact that they're implemented.

The scientific method (reason free of dogma) was an affront to the church just a few centuries ago. Freedom of choice was anathema to Communist big wigs just decades ago. Freedom of/from religion is illegal in current day SA. If you don't see how they all used the same methods then you're being willfully ignorant.

Yeah, my use of theocracy obviously wasn't accurate, but it was made to illustrate a point that authoritarianism is authoritarianism regardless of the seed that spawned that that particular controlling tree.

You're using a really simplistic framework to try and collapse the massive differences between these regimes in order to try to lay the ills of communism at the feet of theocracy no matter how nonsensical the point ultimately is. If you want to say they're all authoritarian then sure that's accurate but no need to butcher the term "theocracy" just because you're bothered by someone pointing out that anti-theist, and not theist, regimes have the worst track record on human rights within the last 250 years.

 

[SalvadorCollie]

If I declare war in the name of Joe Biden, does that speak Ill of me or Joe Biden? Certain religions have been used for war against their fundamentals, while other religions share a fundamental of war.

Those in power are bound to abuse it in one regard or another. Separation of church and state hasn’t helped much.

 

[eternaldarkness]

religion will always be a part of it. they need religion to sell their wars.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Not impossible but most of these places are still pretty socially conservative and much more so at the time the Sultanate was dissolved.

Anyway I don't think this conversation is really going anywhere since I made my point more than once and you don't really seem to have an argument against it as much as you just want to express your distaste with it. Cheers

LOL What are you talking about? Your point that the majority of formerly Ottoman subjects don't care about human rights therefore they don't need them is silly to say the least. Human rights protect the vulnerable, they allow people to stand up to corruption and provide a standard for basic equality and human dignity.

Given humanities past and the lessons we have learned I don't care how rich a society is. If they can't provide basic human rights for their citizens they are a failure! And once again, societies ability or willingness to provide human rights is not mutually exclusive from any sort of monetary success.

 

[TheComebackKid]

are you being serious? where is the poverty of spirit?

I was serious about recieving revelation but was joking about being smarter than others. Ive just been given a degree of truth & understanding those others just dont have.

but as an act of kindness let me offer this to you. if you really have received revelation you should put a lot more work into explaining yourself in a way that is coherent. i have asked you to do so recently and you have not bothered. what good is revelation if you don't help others with it? you complain a lot on here that no one gets you. as far as i can tell you have never put forth a decent effort to explain yourself in a way that people would get you.

I'll try to improve on explaining myself. However, you asked me about moonlight which told you're not serious thus im not wasting my time.

If you study the etymology of the word "troll" you'll find out it stems from "demon". And if you study the characteristics of a demon you'll see that it matches the behavior of a troll. And that's how I see you guys....as demons. Seriously.

So if you're serious about wanting me to explain certain things better or more indepth then you need ask serious questions. And also, you bear responsibility of your own understanding. You can always go research these things im not explaining very well.

 

[Islam Imamate]

LOL What are you talking about? Your point that the majority of formerly Ottoman subjects don't care about human rights therefore they don't need them is silly to say the least. Human rights protect the vulnerable, they allow people to stand up to corruption and provide a standard for basic equality and human dignity.

Given humanities past and the lessons we have learned I don't care how rich a society is. If they can't provide basic human rights for their citizens they are a failure! And once again, societies ability or willingness to provide human rights is not mutually exclusive from any sort of monetary success.

Doesn't really matter what you care about, what matters is what people in the region themselves care about and more often than not they prioritize in-group autonomy and material prosperity. Hence why virtually none of the Gulf states had an uprising during the Arab Spring despite being the least free states with the lone exception being Bahrain, a Shia majority country with a Sunni monarchy ruling over it.

 

[ocfightfan]

Don't get it twisted, the Catholics, Christians and jews are just as extreme, if not more, than Muslims.


They just wiped out a whole country bc they convinced trump through the bible smh Are jews going to get a free pass for the rest of time bc of world war 2?

This is high school level nonsense. There is no general command in Christianity and Judaism to conquer unbelievers. In islam there is. And in fact if we are talking about people committing acts of violence with a religious or ideological justification communism is the HW champ of the last century and a half and islam is the GOAT.

As far as this "wiped out a whole country" business I don't know what you are referring to, but the line doesn't make any sense.

 

[Kvolcom]

This is high school level nonsense. There is no general command in Christianity and Judaism to conquer unbelievers. In islam there is. And in fact if we are talking about people committing acts of violence with a religious or ideological justification communism is the HW champ of the last century and a half and islam is the GOAT.

As far as this "wiped out a whole country" business I don't know what you are referring to, but the line doesn't make any sense.

bro, Trump signed a peace agreement to turn Palestine (muslim country mostly) into a jewish state! Do you know how much killing happened before that!

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Doesn't really matter what you care about, what matters is what people in the region themselves care about and more often than not they prioritize in-group autonomy and material prosperity. Hence why virtually none of the Gulf states had an uprising during the Arab Spring despite being the least free states with the lone exception being Bahrain, a Shia majority country with a Sunni monarchy ruling over it.

Once again, it's not just about ethnic autonomy, it's about the rights of women, the people that want to convert, homosexuals and the irreligious. If you don't care about protecting the vulnerable, the weak and just want the majority and the strong to get there way and get rich then ok. Just don't complain when you or people you identify with are persecuted.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Once again, it's not just about ethnic autonomy, it's about the rights of women, the people that want to convert, homosexuals and the irreligious. If you don't care about protecting the vulnerable, the weak and just want the majority and the strong to get there way and get rich then ok. Just don't complain when you or people you identify with are persecuted.

You keep missing the point here genius, doesn't matter what you or I care about as Westerners who don't live in the region. If you want political stability what matters are the concerns of the people in the region and they primarily care about material prosperity and in-group autonomy. Not everyone around the world is like the hyper-individualist Westerner whose primary concern is whether or not they have the right to gay marriage or to burn the Bible.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

You keep missing the point here genius, doesn't matter what you or I care about as Westerners who don't live in the region. If you want political stability what matters are the concerns of the people in the region and they primarily care about material prosperity and in-group autonomy. Not everyone around the world is like the hyper-individualist Westerner whose primary concern is whether or not they have the right to gay marriage or to burn the Bible.

I have no allusions of changing the world from Sherdog but what we believe matters in a discussion between us. You've already stated that human rights are not mutually exclusive with stability, prosperity or autonomy, so why can't they have them all?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I have no allusions of changing the world from Sherdog but what we believe matters in a discussion between us. You've already stated that human rights are not mutually exclusive with stability, prosperity or autonomy, so why can't they have them all?

The discussion was originally about a counter-factual of a sort of neo-Ottoman Empire which would have regional/local autonomy in the region to deal with the ethno-linguistic diversity. I think that's a good idea even if its not perfect by Western liberal standards. As is the region is not much better.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

The discussion was originally about a counter-factual of a sort of neo-Ottoman Empire which would have regional/local autonomy in the region to deal with the ethno-linguistic diversity. I think that's a good idea even if its not perfect by Western liberal standards. As is the region is not much better.

Is "not perfect" your way of saying that western liberal human rights (freedom of speech, freedom of religion) for all are in fact mutually exclusive with that proposed Neo-Ottoman Empire?

 

[terrapin]

I was serious about recieving revelation but was joking about being smarter than others. Ive just been given a degree of truth & understanding those others just dont have.



I'll try to improve on explaining myself. However, you asked me about moonlight which told you're not serious thus im not wasting my time.

If you study the etymology of the word "troll" you'll find out it stems from "demon". And if you study the characteristics of a demon you'll see that it matches the behavior of a troll. And that's how I see you guys....as demons. Seriously.

So if you're serious about wanting me to explain certain things better or more indepth then you need ask serious questions. And also, you bear responsibility of your own understanding. You can always go research these things im not explaining very well.

i was dead serious about moonlight man. its one of your beliefs. unless you think your belief are not serious then a question about them should be taken seriously.

you said this-- i have to assume you are trolling here right?

If you study the etymology of the word "troll" you'll find out it stems from "demon". And if you study the characteristics of a demon you'll see that it matches the behavior of a troll. And that's how I see you guys....as demons. Seriously.

if not then it shows how terrible your logic is. i was NOT trolling when i asked that questions. you have stated moonlight is dangerous seriously. its one of the very few things i know that you believe and i asked a serious question about it and was/am completely serious about being willing to try to understand it. this is because i have been around people on the fringe of societies all my life and love them and find their ideas interesting..

based on an incorrect assumption you made about my motives you went from troll being like demons to me being a demon.... i mean, come on man..... really? a demon because you misunderstood me.

if that is the way in which you reason then there is obviously something very wrong with your use of reason.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Is "not perfect" your way of saying that western liberal human rights (freedom of speech, freedom of religion) for all are in fact mutually exclusive with that proposed Neo-Ottoman Empire?

No, that's you putting words in my mouth. Anything's possible in theory.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

No, that's you putting words in my mouth. Anything's possible in theory.

Well then great, a Neo-Ottoman Sultanate which guarantees and enforces western liberal human rights for all would be a good choice for the region.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Well then great, a Neo-Ottoman Sultanate which guarantees and enforces western liberal human rights would be a good choice for the region.

Okay.

 

[Fluffernutter]

War is not a religion. But, it does make some people money.

 

[Yehudim]

So your only grievance with the European model for the nation state was the terrible arbitrary nature of borders chosen after WWI? I'll agree with you that more well thought out borders would have been a better solution over a return to an Ottoman Sultanate.

No, that isn’t my only grievance, as I’ve pointed out, the nation-state is just one model and it does not cohere with the history of the Middle East and China.

Nationalism and the nation-state are inherently aggressive towards minorities and seeks to remove them by force, instead of voluntary assimilation over a long period of time.

If the Ottoman empire was so great everyone would have been wanting to join. They used minorities as cannon fodder. The jizya was humiliating. The freedom and sovereignty the founding fathers of America fought for is what we need.

It's a good thing the Ottomans didn't get involved with North and South America.

There's nothing bad about the nation state and it might not be a European model and not something that arises out of political ingenuity, or a political invention. It could be an inadvertent byproduct of 15th-century intellectual discoveries in political economy, capitalism, mercantilism, political geography, and geography combined together with cartography and advances in map-making technologies. It was with these intellectual discoveries and technological advances that the nation state arose.

Like I said, nation-states are inherently hostile and violent towards minorities

You can invite minorities to voluntarily and peacefully assimilate in your culture like the Chinese, Persians, and Romans did for thousands of years.

Or you can form the nation state and realize “oh wait, we have a ton of minorities on the borderland” and decide you have to kill and suppress them to reach your higher goal of a homogenous homeland

 

[Bald1]

So your only grievance with the European model for the nation state was the terrible arbitrary nature of borders chosen after WWI? I'll agree with you that more well thought out borders would have been a better solution over a return to an Ottoman Sultanate.

I didn't follow your convo, but the Treaty of Trianon was a huge blunder that had terrible long term repercussions as well as being one of the biggest political screw jobs in recent history. Nevermind that outside powers dictating who is to be a citizen of what country goes against the "self determination of a people" principle it was supposed to be all about.