Violent Felons and the Second Amendment

Americans please correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the 2nd was meant for your personal protection. I think it was meant for tyrannical governments.

You also need to take a step back and think long and hard why guns are more important than healthcare. I know its part of your ideology but maybe ideology isn't as important as practical life.

I completely agree.



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


In my reading, this was clearly intended to allow the establishment of 'militias'. I also believe that 'people' means 'populus' and not 'individuals'. So as long as you allow the formation of militias and do not generally forbid open or concealed carry, you should be fine.

I do not believe that this was ever intended to be 'Any citizen should be able to own any kind of arms for any purpose'.

But what do I know.
 
I completely agree.



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


In my reading, this was clearly intended to allow the establishment of 'militias'. I also believe that 'people' means 'populus' and not 'individuals'. So as long as you allow the formation of militias and do not generally forbid open or concealed carry, you should be fine.

I do not believe that this was ever intended to be 'Any citizen should be able to own any kind of arms for any purpose'.

But what do I know.
Well that is the only reasonable interpretation of the 2nd. But its interesting that even this interpretation is kind of dumb.

Someone should tell the americans that every tyrant started with the formation of well trained and well equipped militias. Plenty of examples. On the other hand, if the government decides to go all fascist on you, there is absolutely nothing you can do against modern security forces.

The amount of logistics, preparation and coordination required to get even a single division up and running is insane. No bunch of dumbasses running around with AR-15s can hope to match that, even if they outnumber them 100 to 1.
 
I wrote this but not for this thread. I actually litigate Second Amendment cases and this is part of something I was writing for work.

The Militia Act of 1903 or better known as the Dick Act, named after former congressman and Senator of Ohio, Charles Dick, Chairman of the House Militia Affairs Committee, who also served as President of the National Guard Association of the United States. Charles Dick held the rank of Major General as commander of the Ohio National Guard, reformed the Militia Act of 1792 and created the National Guard distinctly separated into two classes. (1) The uniformed and organized militia under service to the State or Federal governments that receive federal support and (2) the non-uniformed “unorganized” reserve militia of all able bodied men between the ages of 18 thru 45 or former military veterans or retirees from the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or National Guard or Army Reserve. The Militia Act of 1903 was further modified several amendments in 1908, and again modified with the National Defense Act of 1916.

The Anti-Federalists feared that Congress would permit the militia to atrophy, leaving the states defenseless against the central government. They argued that the national Congress could render the militia useless “by disarming them. Under various pretenses, Congress may neglect to provide for arming and disciplining the militia; the stated governments cannot do it, for Congress has an exclusive right to arm them & etc.” The desire to prevent enfeebling state militias, which provided a check to a standing army, prompted the ratifying conventions to call for an amendment guaranteeing the right of citizens to bear arms. The First Congress responded, but the Second Amendment did not remove national control over armed forces or the state militias. However, the Second Amendment, by saying that the “…Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” and that the Right was a constitutionally protected, individual right, it qualified and defended against U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 10, Clause 4: “No State shall, without the consent of Congress …keep troops, or ships of war in time of Peace…” Hence, forthwith, there exists two classes of Militias the “organized” and the “unorganized”.(10 U.S.C. 311,(b,2)

Both State and Federal governments provide no support to the “unorganized” militia as far as financial, equipment or arms, with the exception there is an avenue to voluntarily obtain former military surplus individual arms, i.e. rifle, pistol, bayonet, ammunition and equipment. Formerly through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Both the President of the United States and the National Congress can call forth the “militia”, both organized and unorganized. The “unorganized” militia, on a voluntary basis and through their own financial means, obtain military or “milita” standard rifle, magazines and ammunition, to practice shooting to gain familiarity, knowledge competency.

The Federal government and the State government, by banning the “Standard” arms would diminish, denigrate, and render impotent the efficiency of a reserve pool of the “unorganized” militia, which is every able bodied male between the ages of 18 and 45 and, as of 2011’s veterans survey is also composed of 21.5 million veterans of foreign wars and have had, first hand, familiarity and knowledge of the M-16 and AR-15, .45 cal. Model 1911, semi-automatic pistol and the Beretta 9mm, 15-rounds magazine capacity semi-automatic pistol. Ever since 1963 and the introduction to the Vietnam war, every single soldier and veteran possesses military experience, tactical knowledge, military leadership and discipline and quite naturally, in depth familiarity and knowledge of the M-16, hand held, shoulder fired, gas operated, 30-round individual rifle.

The Second Amendment exists, not as a privilege granted by the Constitution, Federal Government or even State Governments, it acknowledges the fact that the …right to keep and bear arms… is an individual right and that it is a right that was specifically withheld by the People, who have exercised their individual right to cast one vote as a sovereign citizen of the United States. It is not created for hunting, target shooting, sporting events. It exists in support of “…That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness…”. (Declaration of Independence, Clause 2, July 4, 1776).

As such one must would take into consideration today’s environment and militarization of civilian law enforcement. Local law enforcement equipped with .50 cal. sniper rifles and machine guns; armored vehicles, bullet proof vests, fully automatic, “personal defense” M-16s lock and loaded with 30 round magazines, carry semi-automatic loaded with 15-round magazines; serving simple warrants or court order subpoenas or an office search with a fully armed SWAT or Hostage Rescue Team.
The Second Amendment insures that there is equality on an individual basis with the “organized” militia, in preparation for one on one conflicts or violent confrontations, limited to land war. The Federal and State governments have no authority to subordinate the individual firearms of the “unorganized” militia or to limited magazine content and lesser quality or inferior ammunition. Nor can the Federal or State governments single out and subject constitutionally protected firearms, magazines and ammunition to excessive and punitive taxes, insurances, or over burdensome qualifying factors to exercise such protected rights. Simply being a citizen of the United States and acknowledgement that the Second Amendment exists …is sufficient.
 
Probably a lot in other areas but not a lot in this one. Might I recommend you
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/everyman.html

This is the premiere book on the Second Amendment

Thanks. That looks like an interesting read.

What confuses me a bit is that there still are restrictions that are considered sensible. Owning a tank would be an excellent means of self-defense if I live in a rural area. It's still not allowed (I hope) and people agree with it. In the end, no right can exist unrestrained as individual rights will interfere with other rights.
 
I wrote this but not for this thread. I actually litigate Second Amendment cases and this is part of something I was writing for work.

Thanks also, interesting. But this argument of balancing the power of the central state by arming up - I find it a little odd. You'd need way more sophisticated weapons including anti-tank weapons.
 
Thanks. That looks like an interesting read.

What confuses me a bit is that there still are restrictions that are considered sensible. Owning a tank would be an excellent means of self-defense if I live in a rural area. It's still not allowed (I hope) and people agree with it. In the end, no right can exist unrestrained as individual rights will interfere with other rights.

There is fairly easy answer to that. The militia system which all adult males were part of was in place to complement the existing active infantry forces. They were not designed to suddenly become Calvary or artillery troops. Thus the Second Amendment was written to protect the citizenry's right to own militia style arms hence the prefatory clause.

There is a tad more complicated second answer to that as well which I honestly don't want to spend all night typing. I'll type out the gist of it though. Basically the Bill of Rights had to do with the federal government originally. The States were free to do what they wanted i.e. have a state church as many did. The federal government wanted to retain control of the right to make sure private citizens didn't start amassing cannons potentially at the behest of their state government on State borders and the Federal government not being able to do anything about a potential civil was between two states without violating the new Constitution.
 
If they do their time, I don't think they should have restrictions on their rights afterwards. If they do something stupid after they're released, then lock em up for good.

Huh??????


But all these answers/opinions are SO subjective.

You say "if they do tgeir time", theyre good. So if a maniac kills multiple ppl, but is found not guilty on the majority of his charges bdcause his lawyer is great, he served his time? Youd let that gut around your kids/wife/mom?

Listen, i usef to be a shit, between age 15 to 22 i did like 3-4 years of jail time. With a worse lawyer id do 8 years. A better one, maybe none.

But my charges and actions wouldve been the same, so how do ypu know "doing your time" is always appropriate?
 
I've of the belief that a repeat violent criminal should have their arms removed.


Try being violent with no fucking arms asshole. Oh you wanna still attempt to be violent? Their goes your legs.
 
I've of the belief that a repeat violent criminal should have their arms removed.


Try being violent with no fucking arms asshole. Oh you wanna still attempt to be violent? Their goes your legs.

I see what you did there
 
Spending the most on military as a nation in the entire world, one would have thought they would spend as much on education to match the firepower? DUH :icon_chee Little childish minds playing with powerful toys.
 
The individual right to own and bare a gun is in the second amendment if you read it the way it was written.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The U.S. supreme court held this to be true.

Well regulated in this case mean well trained which is where the states themselves have fallen down. Militia means every citizen capable of bearing arms.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is the right not the Militia, a peoples Militia (which was what was intended) would not be possible unless this right was protected. Notice I didn't say the second gave you the right to bear arms I said it protected this right. The constitution does not give you rights, your rights are "God" given.

As far as guns for self-defense all you need to do is read the letters of the founding fathers to know what they wanted.

The security of a free state also means secure from criminals and the Militia has been used to enforce that. See the Battle of Athens.

As to the OP I believe once you are "off paper" (parole) you should get all your rights back.

If you don't want someone to have a gun forever then sentence them to life in prison or a term and life on parole.
 
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Honestly that's a terrible solution. Just locking people up for life because they may re-offend is a much more perverse infringement of freedom and our values than keeping them from owning a gun a few years after they get out.

Instead of responding to high recidivism rates by clogging our prisons more perhaps we should be trying to find out how to lower it? Wouldn't that be better than making the already largest prison population larger and letting our already runaway prison-industrial complex go even further off the rails?

But how is the for-profit prison system going to make money if they aren't locking up (mainly explosive) men for nonviolent drug crimes by the dozen?
 
He has a right to pay for and choose his healthcare. Why does it have to be paid for by the government?

We don't ask for universal guns to be passed out like Obamaphones.

WTF are Obamaphones? Did I miss another free Obama *insertdesiredresource* giveaway?
 
WTF are Obamaphones? Did I miss another free Obama *insertdesiredresource* giveaway?

I'm not joking. I had never heard of Obamaphones until I saw this a few years ago.

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Spending the most on military as a nation in the entire world, one would have thought they would spend as much on education to match the firepower? DUH :icon_chee Little childish minds playing with powerful toys.

Education spending in the US is comparable to defense spending. There is confusion on this topic because defense is a federal role while education is handled by local govts and taxes.
 
Spending the most on military as a nation in the entire world, one would have thought they would spend as much on education to match the firepower? DUH :icon_chee Little childish minds playing with powerful toys.
Switzerland is the only country who spends more per K-12 student than we do.
 
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