Vertical Fist Nonsense

[TigerArm]

Bruce Lee learned that from Jack Dempsey's book, "Championship Fighting." (1950)
Lee's base, Wing Chun, uses the vertical fist too, but Lee's punching techniques in his books are unquestionably the boxing techniques from Dempsey's book.

www.freecirclefighting.com/jdbook.pdf

Whole sections of Lee's books are basically lifted, rewritten and tweaked with Lee's belief in the strong arm leading rather than the orthodox Boxing stance with the weaker arm leading. Lee was a huge boxing fan.
Dempsey is one of the legendary Heavyweight Champions, one of the great punchers of history.


As stated by somebody previously, bare-knuckle fighters of the 1800's and earlier punched with a vertical fist, and when gloves and handwraps entered the picture, the boxing techniques changed including turning the punch over to a horizontal fist.

A bare-knuckle man would never throw a full-power shot high up to the side of the head the way Mike Tyson used to score knockouts with.
Without gloves and handwraps, that technique would break your own hand.
Tyson himself broke his hand cracking Mitch Green in a street-fight in the middle of the night.

The thumb resting right on top of the fist doesn't feel comfortable nor effective to me at all.

Good read here comparing bare-knuckle techniques to modern boxing techniques:
From Bare-Knuckles to Modern Boxing

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That last article was a great read! The old school boxing guard looks a lot like the wing chun guard. I also never knew oldschool boxing allowed throws! Too bad nobody teaches the old style anymore. :icon_sad:

 

[thirteen]

Off Topic:
Another such move, although perfectly legal up until the Queensbury rules, was that of holding an opponent by the hair and beating him until he could no longer fight...
So much win.

 

[Apachai]

Off Topic:
Another such move, although perfectly legal up until the Queensbury rules, was that of holding an opponent by the hair and beating him until he could no longer fight...
So much win.

Brett Rogers would love this.

 

[bradlee180]

That last article was a great read! The old school boxing guard looks a lot like the wing chun guard. I also never knew oldschool boxing allowed throws! Too bad nobody teaches the old style anymore. :icon_sad:

There are old boxing instructional books from the era.
It's still taught here and there.
People forget or don't know that boxing was originally for self-defense.
Here's a YouTube vid of Carl Cestari teahing bare knuckle techniques for self-defense.

Part 1:
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Part 2:
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Part 3:
[YT]XFpEoMsW8kg[/YT]

7 parts, the remaining 4 can be found on YouTube.


Bare Knuckle Boxing never completely died out either.
Modern gloved boxing is Marquess of Queensberry rules whereas Bare Knuckles was Broughton's rules and later London Prize Ring Rules.

Irish travellers, gypsys, still fight Bare Knuckles under London Prize Ring rules.
They have been doing it all during the last century right up to this day.

[YT]lB0_QEh-KVs[/YT]

.

 

[MrMih]

i saw hatton and frank mir use the vertical fist. gives u more weapons. I like it when punching at odd angles. helps u go thru pplz guards.

 

[RemyR]

I usually throw my tighter hooks with a vertical fist. Some jabs as well.

 

[MrMih]

ya vertical fist is good. when i saw hatton use it, I saw that he use it for uppercuts as well as jabs or crosses. it went thru ppzl guards because it was skinnier. It will def. work in mma too because it will go right thru pplz guards, esp with the smaller mma gloves.

 

[APOLLO]

I throw my wider hooks all with a vertical fist. it's a natural thing. I guess i'd break my hand if i tried to throw them horizontally...but this is a common thing to throw them like that.

the vertical fist jab or cross on the other hand are really interesting. never thought they were effective. i find it kind of unnatural. but that's perhaps because i'm not used to it.

 

[ssullivan80]

long uppercuts work well too.

very true! almost like throwing a straight punch from your waist, low to high.

 

[Adnan Adil]

I can't agree that the horizontal punches don't work without gloves- the Northern Wushu styles, most Karate styles and many of today's self defense system use it for the head.

 

[SandisLL]

Why not? It depends from many obstacles and forearms conditioning. Some even used corcscrew variant as in modern boxing and 0 damages.
Some damages hands with correct and proper bagwork in gyms.

 

[FighterTwister]

Does anyone know why Isshinryu Karate teaches to punch with a vertical fist AND with the thumb on top of the fist. It seems retarded. I took classes in this style when I was in midle school. The kicking techniquies were good because they stressed low kicks and knees, but the punching is crazy. It seems like you would break your thumb.

Does anyone know about this?

http://www.verticalfist.net/#hand

@KarateStylist he could better explain this.

However in my opinion coming from Chinese arts it’s more about applying types of strikes with a naked and toughened hand non gloved and also economy of motion was the theory by design. Where you are engaging different muscle and tendon groups to either develop or produce more power and also speed between the two. I’m a bit rusty on the theory but usually it’s all about the bodies design for each given type of hand strike based on the techniques intent or how and where you strike.

I will take a guess in Karate it’s also about the skeletal structure to align the wrist and arm with the connected body skeletal posture for forward force in applying types of strikes to particular parts of the body where there is bone, hard muscles, or just soft tissue requiring different hand fist with finger or knuckle placements. It’s also an understanding of nerve pressure and where muscle tension is applied on the hand resulting in strain.

In other words the geniouses in ancient times studied the heck out of it, where various types and approaches to striking produced best outcomes inline with anatomical precision.

........................................................................................................................ ^ this one!

In the image above look at the hand form with the thumb knuckle pointing up in a slight fist grip where the index knuckle is being used thats used for very advanced pressure point strikes, maybe that’s the confusion here.







Links:-

https://www.karatebyjesse.com/horizontal-vs-vertical/

https://www.arjanhura.com/the-anatomy-of-karate-hand-techniques/

Various martial arts apply emphasis on given types of techniques not to say one is better than the other but as to why they apply fist types is the use of strengthened tendons and engaged bone including muscles to form different hand shapes in a particular form for a concentrated strike point on the body.

To do a true deep study you need the original notes on the reasoning behind such applications and test results.

 

[SandisLL]

Where you are engaging different muscle and tendon groups to either develop or produce more power and also speed between the two.

I will take a guess in Karate it’s also about the skeletal structure to align the wrist and arm with the connected body skeletal posture for forward force in applying types of strikes to particular parts of the body where there is bone, hard

Speed i think no, that's differs for other obstacles.

About hand preparing sequences for simple proper fist, I think. most likely all arts will be similar if it is for barehands.
Lets start with simple things; proper angle for forearm's joint and fists fingers closing sequence for simple the fist ( seiken ).

 

[FighterTwister]

Speed i think no, that's differs for other obstacles.

About hand preparing sequences for simple proper fist, I think. most likely all arts will be similar if it is for barehands.
Lets start with simple things; proper angle for forearm's joint and fists fingers closing sequence for simple the fist ( seiken ).

Speed is a vital element in the execution but it’s developed, speed and driven power is what would cause maximum penetration internal damage, but now we are diverting from the subject or topic because there are a few ways you can hit to cause either external damage or deep internal organ damage depending on intent or purpose of the strike.

Lets just stick to the thread title “VERTICAL FIST NONSENSE”.

 

[SandisLL]

Lets just stick to the thread title “VERTICAL FIST NONSENSE”.

Wow, sometimes you might post something without so large heavy bunches wiht memes and loads of links.

At first will cope with this proper simple fist and after this I think let's discuss vertical or horizontal or corcscrew. OK?

 

[KarateStylist]

@KarateStylist he could better explain this.

@FighterTwister

Twister, I'm in so much trouble here already.

Ah, and I don't believe they had boxing gloves in China back in the day. Monks & such did study privately, maybe we should take a cue.

 

[FighterTwister]

I

@FighterTwister

Twister, I'm in so much trouble here already.

Ah, and I don't believe they had boxing gloves in China back in the day. Monks & such did study privately, maybe we should take a cue.

Naa...... they can cope its a discussion Forum after all, good ole chatting.........

I just realized the thread is.....

friend2most, Nov 27, 2006 <Lmaoo>

Oh well good chiming in sharing some thoughts, facts

Does anyone know why Isshinryu Karate teaches to punch with a vertical fist AND with the thumb on top of the fist. It seems retarded. I took classes in this style when I was in midle school. The kicking techniquies were good because they stressed low kicks and knees, but the punching is crazy. It seems like you would break your thumb.

Does anyone know about this?

http://www.verticalfist.net/#hand

 

[KarateStylist]

@KarateStylist he could better explain this.

In other words the geniouses in ancient times studied the heck out of it, where various types and approaches to striking produced best outcomes inline with anatomical precision.



To do a true deep study you need the original notes on the reasoning behind such applications and test results.

THE WING CHUN? PRACTITIONER IN THE VIDEO IS TALKING SOME SENSE. BUT IT'S GENERALIZED MUSINGS.

The key for actual practice is to glean the principles underlying the art. If one takes a look at boxing like I recently did, it's highly effective for self defense & as a striking system. So if studying boxing, the importance is to get the science down. We see recent sample by Sinister of his students doing well... and the opponent getting trashed. The difference is made by application of principles. With reference to this thread then, what is proper way to form a boxing fist & why?

Jumping into all this complexity will result in incompetence. That's IMO.

If I switch to karate, which is much less sophisticated than Chinese martial arts, people can't & don't have the discipline to explain ANYTHING about the first most basic Shotokan kata. Instead, all kinds of stupid, nitwit answers like:

1. Kata is for kiddies.
2. Kata is for basics.
3. Kata is impractical and doesn't work.
4. Kata is watered down.
5. Nobody knows what the originator of kata was doing, it's all guess work.
6. The down block isn't a good block
7. The down block is really a strike.
8. Kata's good for exercise.
9. Kata isn't fighting.
10. Kata won't help you fight, only sparring bridges that gap.
11. The chambering in kata will get you knocked out.
12. Etc.

The answer to the fist forms is determined by the principles of the art. Be it boxing, karate, chinese TMA. What's important is to understand what you are doing. Which MMA really doesn't for the most part.

SOOO, in Isshin ryu, what are the principles of the vertical fist, and over that what are the principles of Isshin ryu? It's not a simple question like Greg Jackson & Mike Winkeljohn feed to their flock of adoring students.

Otherwise, MMA will go around forever & ever....

 

[KarateStylist]

I


Naa...... they can cope its a discussion Forum after all, good ole chatting.........
Oh well good chiming in sharing some thoughts, facts

I don't know about the thumb business, but the vertical fist is anything but nonsense. A lot of Pro Boxers use vertical fist positioning when performing the trip-hammer style jab and with their hooks.

Okay, well get Sinister to explain himself. His style is to parcel his wisdom out in dribs & drabs.

And what about our MMA experienced, Okinawan karate stylist @BudoNoah ?

The traditional karate model address the fist issue in basics. I suggest one start with the basic karate fist 1st, get a handle on what it's doing pros & cons. The larger point is that all this must fit together into a unified whole of mutually supporting principles. In modern karate that's this.

• How to properly make the standard karate fist
• How to properly do the standard karate lunge or front punch
• How to execute the Taikyoku kata:
• which contains the standard karate fist, and
• the standard karate lunge or front punch, and
• utilizes the standard karate fist in the down block or low block as well.

Otherwise, it's just disjointed talk. I became a good fighter by going over all the issues and then putting all the principles together. What makes the art work.

 

[FighterTwister]

I agree on its defined by "Principles" Karate by design is based on Form, Balance and Center of Gravity.

Where in say Wing Chun by design its based on Centreline Theory.

Then for Boxing by design is based on physical preparation, close quarter techniques and tactics.

However one could argue they overlap and are transferable with modifications.

I don't know enough would need to be a sports science professor holding a Phd and Doctorate to dig deeper into the core and variances.