Vertical Fist Nonsense

[KarateStylist]

In boxing both are used differently.

E.g...

* A straight jab - horizontal fist

* A right hook - vertical fist

One technique is applied and arms length range where another is in the pocket close quarter usually the vertical fist is applied here more like a piercing through the guard and gloves using the elbow. Some call it arrow strikes because like the tip of an arrow its intent is to strike the bulls eye.

Just to take the boxing... I just got slammed for commenting on MMA boxing in one section, then by Mongler, et al, for having an empty head. Like I have to be a boxer to take on a boxer. Understand how to do that. MMA the business is driven by promotion, Media forums are the Wild West. A scripted one.

You are identifying the principles, I isolated out boxing above. There is no principle in blindly going for a double leg, dropping your head and extending forward w hands wide & outstretched, when a knee is catapulting into your face @ high speed.

Sure there are guys @ RoufusSport like Paul Felder who mean well. The place, however, reads two sentences into your post & eyes glaze over. "More sparring." Duh.

 

[KarateStylist]

This Stephan guy still misses the mark, the types of hand form strikes are for instances to apply a technique you dont continuously hold that fist form and fight like that.

I like the two Kesting "Fist" posts. Few people are going to get into the esoterica of specialized fists. He makes a good effort to explain & work through the mechanics.

His problem is he makes himself the center of martial arts wisdom. Busted him up on his TMA / kata theory, though.

Here, the ultimated weapon for that is Mongler, Hit Man & High Priest of MMA Witchdom. Confusion preserves the status quo, which is making the UFC richer & richer. Vertical fist is the last thing on their multi-plex theater checklist.

 

[FighterTwister]

So where or what scenario do we fit in.....

• Ignorance is bliss
• Ignorance knows no bounds

<{CMPALM}>

 

[KarateStylist]

So where or what scenario do we fit in.....

• Ignorance is bliss
• Ignorance knows no bounds

<{CMPALM}>

Karate Stylist = persona no grata.

 

[KarateStylist]

So where or what scenario do we fit in.....

• Ignorance is golden harmony<{CMPALM}>
• Ignorance knows boundless profits

My MMA training adjustments to your post.

 

[FighterTwister]

Karate Stylist = persona no grata.

LoL

Aren’t we all persona non grata = diversis hominibusi

 

[KarateStylist]

So where or what scenario do we fit in.....

• Ignorance is bliss
• Ignorance knows no bounds

<{CMPALM}>

The Namajunas loss to Andrade... I saw that coming.

There's a tread, good thread, put up by Striking Thoughts, Modern Martial Artist. On Rose Top 5 MMA Strikers. All good suppositions on his part.

Rose's striking, her boxing is excellent relative to MMA. Trouble is she's not system whole in her art, to borrow your posting vernacular. This makes good martial form, very good form, vulnerable.

Take Frode, who's my striking art natural antagonist. He's very systematic. Trouble is, for Muay Thai. He's so good at what he does, he's confident he has it all. His first mistake. Confidence is a feeling. Martial art is knowing. What gives Frode Confidence is actually his Achilles heel... if one has the skills to get to it.

I really, really hated to see that slam of Rose (other than like Askren, a superb martial lesson). I knew it could happen. I knew is was an ever present danger. She could well have been injured permanently, her life over. Andrade in the clear, all legal technique, good too.

The answer is training the way Kesting says not too.

 

[KarateStylist]

LoL

Aren’t we all persona non grata = diversis hominibusi

Sorry, I'm MMA. I only understand "hard sparring." lol

 

[KarateStylist]

LoL

Aren’t we all persona non grata = diversis hominibusi

Here's that Striking Thoughts MMA Analysts guy. He's upset w me cause he (a boxer) has MMA striking all figured out. NOT. It's true he has come a far way in figuring certain things out... and is extending & applying his boxing knowledge.

He challenged me with this laundry list of boxing attributes to show I was off on my opinion about Rose's boxing in MMA.

That's cute.
Why don't you actually provide a reason as to why my statement is false?

Footwork
Angles
In an out movement
Jab
Lead hook
Feints
Slips
Rhythm
Head movement
Combinations

Name 5 ufc fighters that are better than Rose at all of those or most of those.

First of all, he made a blanket statement of 'false,' when black & white is not a system approach. Then he supposed he could make his point with a homework assignment on boxing attributes. A good beginning, progress, not a system.

I am the system on black-belt karate... the Japanese related versions. And as I've said, that system goes into way more depth than boxing. Not that boxing can't approach or match karate in practice... there are some good Sinister vids showing so. Rose is well along Sinister's systematic like approach, but yet far away.

Rose's Knockdown then KO of Joanna Jedrzejczyk was beautiful because it was systematic. Have to go back and see what fist form she used. Match 2, Rose decisioned because she was not as systematic; Joanna more focused. Rose on Andrade, was systematic to a point, which lessened in Round 2. And Rose lessened in Round 2 because she wasn't systematic enough in Round 1.

The system must have integrity to succeed. Be executed w integrity.

 

[KarateStylist]

LoL

Aren’t we all persona non grata = diversis hominibusi

Yet had Holly Holm broadened her horizons along your wide perspective, she might have fared better, had a chance post- Ronda to do something other than KO Bethe can't-get-out-of-her-own- way Correia.

See the Striking Thoughts boxing laundry list below:

Footwork
Angles
In an out movement
Jab
Lead hook
Feints
Slips
Rhythm
Head movement
Combinations

The major weaknesses in Holly's boxing aren't even on them. Jackson / Wink is over-rated but they are not dummies. They have been working @ & on Holly's weak parts. Came up with a specific approach for the Nunes fight. The Cyborg loss staring them right in the face. Trouble was, it was a typical MMA laundry list item. Ddid enjoy limited success in Round 1, very limited in that Holly never made it out of Round 1.

Speaking of animals, Nunes is a Lion. And Hungary for success. Hungary to please Dana. The Lion may toy with you for 5 rounds then (like Penne), or decide to eat you right away (Cyborg). Lions are way stronger than normal people so they can do so.

Your system for taking out the Lion had better be ready right away. And integral. Holly's failed on two significant, inter-related dimensions. Nunes then, pawed & chomped her in < 1 round (used normal boxing fists?). Including the part Jackson / Wink specifically attempted to address w their drilling. Kinda of half that one mentioned in the Modern Martial Artist laundry list,on item.

Great fun watching the tower of babel come tumbling down. In Mongler's case, babble.

 

[FighterTwister]

A view into horizontal fist striking.

The emphasis is on the body alignment and fighting principles.........

Purpose to turn the whole body into a solid active muscle state and align the skeletal structure with a low centered base where punching can be executed very fast using strong long striking.

It does not matter or deviate on styles argument........ both Japanese and Chinese arts employ as previously mentioned the various types of strikes that are specific to what you use in a given technique as illustrated above as an example and here is a Kung Fu variant.


Kung Fu Techniques : Kung Fu Punch Combo

 

[KarateStylist]

A view into horizontal fist striking.

The emphasis is on the body alignment and fighting principles.........

This is why I chose {quote} simple {quote} karate style. Shotokan literally rams this lesson home. Virtually all the karate fails in the UFC Championships can be linked back to incompetent body mechanics. Which of course a door into the total systemic problem. Serious in boxing, but incompetence is much more serious as a failing in karate.

I don't like the Shotokan karate style. Attended one of the few Shotokan karate schools in my area long ago. Instructor didn't like me @ all {surprise}. Even he has some reservations about his Shotokan.

Shotokan, however, does a very good job a presenting in your face certain bedrock karate principles. Body Alignment or Body Mechanics is hugely emphasized.

Purpose to turn the whole body into a solid active muscle state and align the skeletal structure with a low centered base where punching can be executed very fast using strong long striking.

One the requisite strength is developed though sound body mechanics, fully rounded strength, then this type of transitory applications can be taken up. As has been posted on MMA sites, Machida employed this technique on his march to the UFC LHW Title.

However, it is not the technique which provides the base for success, it's the body alignment, etc. principles which you talk about. And more.

 

[KarateStylist]

A view into horizontal fist striking.

The emphasis is on the body alignment and fighting principles.........

It does not matter or deviate on styles argument........ both Japanese and Chinese arts employ as previously mentioned the various types of strikes that are specific to what you use in a given technique as illustrated above as an example and here is a Kung Fu variant.

This statement is true & not true. Whatever karate does, Kung fu is 100 times harder to achieve. I like to say karate is 10 times harder than boxing (Sinister won't be happy), and Kung fu is 10 times better than karate but 100 times harder to do. Or vice versa on the 100, 10 factors.

Verticle fist vs. Standared karate horizontal fist must be placed withing that context.

Kung Fu Techniques : Kung Fu Punch Combo

Excellent kung fu vid, BTW.

 

[franklinstower]

This statement is true & not true. Whatever karate does, Kung fu is 100 times harder to achieve. I like to say karate is 10 times harder than boxing (Sinister won't be happy), and Kung fu is 10 times better than karate but 100 times harder to do. Or vice versa on the 100, 10 factors.

Kung Fu Techniques : Kung Fu Punch Combo

Excellent kung fu vid, BTW.[/QUOTE]

Kung Fu is harder than Karate but not 100 times harder. Just guessing its maybe ten times as hard. The internals, Xing Yi being my style are maybe 30 times as hard.

 

[SandisLL]

There are more these black belts than some might imagine.
By the way, at least some boxing trainers shows where preferable to use vertical, where horizontal fist.
Force from where might be generated, is clear from school and unis, just anatomy, maths and physics.
Discussions Art vs Art of course might got harash reaction, cos humans not art fight.

Shotokan of course is effective art, especially blows in middle section, so respectable power.
Does this means that it is most suitable for MMA from all styles ?
I don't think, cos despite powerful, maybe too linear and with less grappling than in some other styles.

 

[FighterTwister]

I don't agree with this Karate vs Kung Fu and one is harder, no way imho

Trust me never make that argument because it fails, its always about the "Individual", and who knows where the next talent (Bruce Lee) figure comes from next, there is always one that rises.

Have you ever seen a young high ranked Karateca I mean all the high kicks and various punching techniques fast explosive.

This is the problem to many sport representations on Youtubes, I'm talking about real trained fighters........barely see that any more.

One always rises though.

Some examples just quickly Googled..........







Like you said all the training to ensure all the body mechanics is applied in correct technique damn that stuff takes years to refine and ensure you are executing each technique with speed, power and accuracy.

You know that.

 

[KarateStylist]

@FighterTwister

 

[FighterTwister]

@FighterTwister

<Lmaoo><Lmaoo><Lmaoo>

@48 I am aiming for this................

... P.S. ....and believe me its a better place where I'm going, no more tax's

 

[KarateStylist]

I don't agree with this Karate vs Kung Fu and one is harder, no way imho

Trust me never make that argument because it fails, its always about the "Individual", and who knows where the next talent (Bruce Lee) figure comes from next, there is always one that rises.

Sorry Twister, you're wrong on this one.

Have you ever seen a young high ranked Karateca I mean all the high kicks and various punching techniques fast explosive.

Sure, individual's can excel and approach the level of the higher art. I made this very same comment regarding certain of Sinisters' boxing vids vs. karate.

This is the problem to many sport representations on Youtubes, I'm talking about real trained fighters........barely see that any more.

One always rises though.

Youtube is not an authority on traditional martial arts.

Some examples just quickly Googled..........

Likewise for Google.

This is not anywhere near kung fu in intensity or effectiveness. Sorry.

Moreover, the point is better made in that we do not see much actual traditional form in kumite or MMA as depicted in this kata. I'm one of the very rare karatestylist who fights with the form you see in kata. Absent some of the fanciness.

Internet forums can only illustrate, not really demonstrate. The answers you propose begins with the manuals. Be it karate or kung fu. Thats' the start of getting @ the true answer to the level of martial art question.

Finally, TMA instructors in my area of any style (kung fu, the karates, TKD) either outright agree w me, or don't challenge what I say. Instructors at my own dojo, higher ranked than, tacitly agree and don't challenge the superiority of kung fu over karate. PC wise they avoid the issue 'cause of
org. image, just like MMA.

I gave you a hint about this when I put all that karate background lead into the vertical fist. This is the same message of Gichin Funakoshi when he created Shotokan out of the Okinawan karates. There's levels to the traditional martial arts... lets' boil it down and make sure the average practitioner has a better chance of getting the process right. Something not too difficult in an already difficult process to master competently. Very wise man.

 

[KarateStylist]

<Lmaoo><Lmaoo><Lmaoo>

@48 I am aiming for this................

... P.S. ....and believe me its a better place where I'm going, no more tax's

Relax. That's what the kung fu instructors do in my area. Most are generally laid back. It's the karate instructors who get more worked up.

But seriously, I have a good rapport with TMA instructors in my area, for the most part. We really all just pay attention to the curriculum, that is our guide to the answers.

TMA's all share the 1st order of fundamentals. The level of effectiveness, the kinds of strength developed , however, there is a hierarchy.