Vertical Fist Nonsense

[Sinister]

I feel like i get a lot more distance with the way i jab now. With the trip hammer, i wouldnt rotate/extend my arm as much.

Sure, but if distance it what you need then this jab wouldn't be the right tool

 

[KarateStylist]

Sure, but if distance it what you need then this jab wouldn't be the right tool

Vertical fist is not a 'jab.'But with MMA anything is possible.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

It is if it's a trip hammer jab, which is what Sinister is discussing...

 

[KarateStylist]

It is if it's a trip hammer jab, which is what Sinister is discussing...

Trip Hammer Jab
>Kattar throws his jab from a higher guard to a lower target. The path of the punch is diagonal and downward. Lamas throws a jab of his own that is short-armed, but Kattar’s trip hammer jab staggers Lamas.

The trip hammer jab isn’t an especially powerful variation of the jab, but it is an extremely difficult punch to see coming since it’s unloaded straight from the chin and there’s very little weight behind it. Notice Kattar’s posture in the GIF above. He doesn’t lean his upper body into the jab, nor does he step particularly hard with his lead leg. The trip hammer jab is more of a flinching punch than a stinging one, but it’s accurate and difficult to time. It can also threaten an opponent’s sense of distance, since the thrower doesn’t have to extend their posture or reach to land it.

Source: MMA Sucka

Learn something new everyday.

 

[shincheckin]

Sure, but if distance it what you need then this jab wouldn't be the right tool

I saw Eubanks do a jaw similar in motion to the trip hammer but with the palm out. It was a very "pawy" jab, do you know what Im talking about? I can never seem to find the clip of it, when hes talking about how his jab was his most important punch that "carried him aroudn the world"

 

[RabbitPunch36]

I saw Eubanks do a jaw similar in motion to the trip hammer but with the palm out. It was a very "pawy" jab, do you know what Im talking about? I can never seem to find the clip of it, when hes talking about how his jab was his most important punch that "carried him aroudn the world"

Eubank Sr. ?

 

[FighterTwister]

For MMA applications I will go with vertical or variations of vertical for many reasons like when hitting elbows used by many like Tony Fergusson.

You are more susceptible to hand breaks in a straight punch due to its locked alignment one could argue that is.

But in the vertical use its more applicable from various angles not having to think and adjust to much in close quarter or long fist approach.

A good read if any interested..... https://www.martialartsexplained.com/pictures-of-karate-fists-types-hand/

Just my take on being efficient and acquiring the fight game / opponent quicker with body and hook shots............. even a straight side stance jab like this...

The awful elbow encounter.....

 

[shincheckin]

Eubank Sr. ?

Yes, sr

 

[Adnan Adil]

do you think that jab shortens the reach a bit? This was my main way of jabbing for a long time it was very effective. But I punched like a rockem sockem robot.

Yes, IMO the hammer fists are with shorter range. And they are also harder for me, because I don't practice them so much.

For MMA applications I will go with vertical or variations of vertical for many reasons like when hitting elbows used by many like Tony Fergusson.

You are more susceptible to hand breaks in a straight punch due to its locked alignment one could argue that is.

But in the vertical use its more applicable from various angles not having to think and adjust to much in close quarter or long fist approach.

A good read if any interested..... https://www.martialartsexplained.com/pictures-of-karate-fists-types-hand/

Just my take on being efficient and acquiring the fight game / opponent quicker with body and hook shots............. even a straight side stance jab like this...

The awful elbow encounter.....

Yes, many people claim this. On Quora there is guy called Chrsi Price who is really walking encyclopedia about fighting. One of the most important things for him is to hit with vertical strikes. He claims that this is the only correct way to land bare knuckle punches.

 

[SandisLL]

the only correct way to land bare knuckle punches.

I think there aren't some only correct way or only few usable punches.
The most dangeros punch from guy is punch he had drilled 1000000 times and more and done in real life.
There's some examples from streets, already posted by others in forum.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/useful-boxing-2-punches-2-kos.3976265/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/1-punch-ko-then-head-meets-glass.3935465/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/russian-dude-koing-fools-at-club.3952893/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tbilisi-club-alley-fight.3919963/

I show these posts just because they are videos from real streets, short timeframe, fast result. bare hands. They resemble also more realistic level in necessity for fight's speed, therefore are valuable to watch.

 

[Adnan Adil]

I think there aren't some only correct way or only few usable punches.
The most dangeros punch from guy is punch he had drilled 1000000 times and more and done in real life.
There's some examples from streets, already posted by others in forum.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/useful-boxing-2-punches-2-kos.3976265/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/1-punch-ko-then-head-meets-glass.3935465/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/russian-dude-koing-fools-at-club.3952893/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tbilisi-club-alley-fight.3919963/

I show these posts just because they are videos from real streets, short timeframe, fast result. bare hands. They resemble also more realistic level in necessity for fight's speed, therefore are valuable to watch.

Nicely said. The best punch is the one that fists, as many experts on the net say. I think that the right power level and the right targeting with good form are crucial for avoiding hand damage.

 

[FighterTwister]

From a Kung Fu perspective where in Karate it follows a complete different philosophy even in Boxing....

The Wing Chun Punch is very different from other types of punches.

1. It’s vertical.
2. It uses one precise point to punch with.
3. Is driven by the elbow, not the shoulder. (shoulders are kept low in relaxed state not engaged)
   
4. It pierces instead of being thrown. ( aka the arrow punch)
   
5. Comes from your center (your heart).
6. Stays along the central plan (the vertical plane between you and your attacker).
7. Is much more compact enabling it to be used in closer quarters than long punches
8. The elbow faces down (elbow crease faces up).
9. Follows principles of economy of motion

Example:-

Applications in MMA/UFC


Vitor Belfort VS. Wanderlei Silva





Foundational Core Demonstrations

Worlds Fastest Punches - Grandmaster William Cheung - Traditional Wing Chun kung Fu




Yip Man - Chain Punching (Rare Footage)



One of the reason I love Martial Arts especially in The Kung Fu and Wing Chun art is for the science and the efficiency of use through careful study they were geniuses.

You got to read on the martial arts then things makes sense, there will be various opinions put forward but hold true to the original genious of the arts always, then allow for adaption and experimentation.

 

[KarateStylist]

From a Kung Fu perspective where in Karate it follows a complete different philosophy even in Boxing....

The Wing Chun Punch is very different from other types of punches.

1. It’s vertical.
2. It uses one precise point to punch with.
3. Is driven by the elbow, not the shoulder. (shoulders are kept low in relaxed state not engaged)
   
4. It pierces instead of being thrown. ( aka the arrow punch)
   
5. Comes from your center (your heart).
6. Stays along the central plan (the vertical plane between you and your attacker).
7. Is much more compact enabling it to be used in closer quarters than long punches
8. The elbow faces down (elbow crease faces up).
9. Follows principles of economy of motion

Example:-

Applications in MMA/UFC


Vitor Belfort VS. Wanderlei Silva





Foundational Core Demonstrations

Worlds Fastest Punches - Grandmaster William Cheung - Traditional Wing Chun kung Fu




Yip Man - Chain Punching (Rare Footage)



One of the reason I love Martial Arts especially in The Kung Fu and Wing Chun art is for the science and the efficiency of use through careful study they were geniuses.

You got to read on the martial arts then things makes sense, there will be various opinions put forward but hold true to the original genious of the arts always, then allow for adaption and experimentation.

The Vitor vid is a stretch.

The middle Wing chun vid is for real.

The final Wing chun vid, Ip Man I find amusing because for boxing you go to Mike Tyson. Quite a contrast in physique & stature.

TMU, the two arts that revolve around the vertical fist as base are Isshin Ryu and Wing chun. Both highly specialized versions of their base art category, karate & kung fu respectively.

 

[Adnan Adil]

From a Kung Fu perspective where in Karate it follows a complete different philosophy even in Boxing....

The Wing Chun Punch is very different from other types of punches.

1. It’s vertical.
2. It uses one precise point to punch with.
3. Is driven by the elbow, not the shoulder. (shoulders are kept low in relaxed state not engaged)
   
4. It pierces instead of being thrown. ( aka the arrow punch)
   
5. Comes from your center (your heart).
6. Stays along the central plan (the vertical plane between you and your attacker).
7. Is much more compact enabling it to be used in closer quarters than long punches
8. The elbow faces down (elbow crease faces up).
9. Follows principles of economy of motion

Example:-

Applications in MMA/UFC


Vitor Belfort VS. Wanderlei Silva





Foundational Core Demonstrations

Worlds Fastest Punches - Grandmaster William Cheung - Traditional Wing Chun kung Fu




Yip Man - Chain Punching (Rare Footage)



One of the reason I love Martial Arts especially in The Kung Fu and Wing Chun art is for the science and the efficiency of use through careful study they were geniuses.

You got to read on the martial arts then things makes sense, there will be various opinions put forward but hold true to the original genious of the arts always, then allow for adaption and experimentation.

After all it seems that the vertical punches work... very well.

 

[Hotora86]

I use vertical for the jab, horizontal for the cross.

Somewhat related video, more focused on which knuckles to use (but that choice impacts the fist rotation):

 

[Hotora86]

As for the thumb, yes, definitely should not stick out.

 

[KarateStylist]

As for the thumb, yes, definitely should not stick out.

Glad you brought Stephan back. He's fully researched this thumb business.

 

[FighterTwister]

As for the thumb, yes, definitely should not stick out.

Glad you brought Stephan back. He's fully researched this thumb business.

This Stephan guy still misses the mark, the types of hand form strikes are for instances to apply a technique you dont continuously hold that fist form and fight like that.

E.g Leopard Paw Style LoL

Thats not the intent of those fist forms.



What his missing to say in all honesty is that in the vicious fights of ancient times they would maul each other down with a variety of hard strikes to specific body target points, where each strike form was specifically designed for mostly in the later part of the fight wearing down the opponents.

Maul meaning..........
verb
past tense: mauled; past participle: mauled
(of an animal) wound (a person or animal) by scratching and tearing.
"a man was mauled by a lion at London Zoo"
synonyms: savage, attack, tear to pieces, lacerate, claw, mutilate, mangle, scratch

Link:- https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Maul+meaning


The Karate and Kung Fu fist form strikes are alike in the two systems with the intent to cause outer bruising, scratching, tearing, and other types for internal blows to the nervous system and pressure point arteries.

They all work just as they are trained in and you can see the damage done without wearing gloves just in Bareknuckle fighting.

These days we live like civil people and behave, we train in a sport environment with gloves and we don't apply that amount of damage to each other.

To say they don't work and are useless is only admitting you don't know much about Martial Arts at all.

Now to emphasize straight or vertical punching is simply based on the systems principles of punching.

Anatomically Karate focuses on the shoulder to rear foot alignment based on its fighting principles.

Anatomically Wing Chun focuses on the elbow and economy of motion theory off a natural stance and also using a horse stance approach based on Kung Fu fighting principles.

In boxing both are used differently.

E.g...

* A straight jab - horizontal fist

* A right hook - vertical fist

One technique is applied and arms length range where another is in the pocket close quarter usually the vertical fist is applied here more like a piercing through the guard and gloves using the elbow. Some call it arrow strikes because like the tip of an arrow its intent is to strike the bulls eye.

They are precision strikes.... kidney, liver etc..... you cover these strikes in the second to fourth rank in TMA's as you start to develop in the art.

 

[KarateStylist]

This Stephan guy still misses the mark, the types of hand form strikes are for instances to apply a technique you dont continuously hold that fist form and fight like that.

E.g Leopard Paw Style LoL

Thats not the intent of those fist forms.



What his missing to say in all honesty is that in the vicious fights of ancient times they would maul each other down with a variety of hard strikes to specific body target points, where each strike form was specifically designed for mostly in the later part of the fight wearing down the opponents.

Maul meaning..........
verb
past tense: mauled; past participle: mauled
(of an animal) wound (a person or animal) by scratching and tearing.
"a man was mauled by a lion at London Zoo"
synonyms: savage, attack, tear to pieces, lacerate, claw, mutilate, mangle, scratch

The Karate and Kung Fu fist form strikes are alike in the two systems with the intent to cause outer bruising, scratching, tearing, and other types for internal blows to the nervous system and pressure point arteries.

They all work just as they are trained in and you can see the damage done without wearing gloves just in Bareknuckle fighting.

These days we live like civil people and behave, we train in a sport environment with gloves and we don't apply that amount of damage to each other.

To say they don't work and are useless is only admitting you don't know much about Martial Arts at all.

Now to emphasize straight or vertical punching is simply based on the systems principles of punching.

Anatomically Karate focuses on the shoulder to rear foot alignment based on its fighting principles.

Anatomically Wing Chun focuses on the elbow and economy of motion theory based on its fighting principles.

In boxing both are used differently.

E.g...

* A straight jab - horizontal fist

* A right hook - vertical fist

One technique is applied and arms length range where another is in the pocket close quarter usually the vertical fist is applied here more like a piercing through the guard and gloves using the elbow. Some call it arrow strikes because like the tip of an arrow its intent is to strike the bulls eye.

They precision strikes.... kidney, liver etc..... you cover these strikes in the second to fourth rank in TMA's as you start to develop in the art.

Kesting fits his mold onto the art. Unthinking.

 

[KarateStylist]

[Kesting] To say they don't work and are useless is only admitting you don't know much about Martial Arts at all.

Simple is as simple does.

The legit perspective behind Kesting, is ramping up to these highly sophistacated / self defense applications. Highly skilled & specialized traditional arts employ these. The difficulty is problematic.

MMA can't even get Ben Askren to do something other than reactively grab for the double leg, then claim they expected that would ALWAYS work. Askren & RoufusSport are Kesting's audience.

Felder did say more sparring, as you advocate intelligently. But thats' always go to MMA's band-aid.